Talk:Isu

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Reference or Source

Does anyone have a reference or a source for this because I didn't hear aything about them in the game?

...Have you even finished the game? it's right there at the end!--CombustionMan 00:11, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Indeed - I don't see how he could have asked that if he hasn't completed AC2. --Yargling 12:43, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

They are first mentined by Warren Vidic in AC1, when Desmond interrogates him for answers on how their technology, like the Animus, was developed, he mentions it was scavenged from 'Those who Came Before'. This is then developed in AC2, right at the end of the game. Play to the end, discover all Glyphs and The Truth videos, and it should be clear.--Peace-and-War

Does anyone have a reference or source on 16 having eagle vision, i dont remember that. O.o Spoonodeath 19:19, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

ACII, 16 says "Why do we have these gifts? It's in our blood!" or something similar. Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 18:33, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Someone please get rid of that deplorable picture of Mars/Ares. It is ruining the friggin page.Beirut 01:52, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

What picture are you talking about? Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 11:37, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Already removed it yesterday. It was 2 pictures of greek statues. -- D. Cello 02:28, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

'Humanity'?

There's a line in there that says something along the lines of 'it was 1499 when humanity would first 'meet' Those Who Came Before' something like that anyway.

It's explicitly stated that humans and Those Who Came Before lived together, even that the latter created the former, so how can it be that Ezio met them before those ancient humans?

It isn't. That piece of info is wrong. -- D. Cello 20:43, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

To quote the article "The first known instance of a human becoming aware of their existence following their disappearance was that of Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad, who made mention of them in his Codex. However, it would not be until the year 1499 that humanity would first "meet" Those Who Came Before; Ezio Auditore da Firenze, an Assassin, encountered a hologram of a being calling herself Minerva in The Vault. While Ezio likely told his fellow Assassins of Minerva, it is possible they still did not understand her true nature; Ezio showed great difficulty in understanding Minerva's explanation of her existence."

As you can see, the word 'meet' is encircled to emphasis that this is a meeting between post-First Civilisation humans and this other race. I feel it is fitting, as in-game the Codex clearly states that humanity had at one stage lost all knowledge of the First Civilisation, and it was only through the efforts of the Assassins and Templars, who used the PoEs', that any knowledge was gained. As such, I feel the wording 'humanity' is more than fitting for the article, especially since "non-primitive humans" is POV… I'm sure they weren't "primitive" at the time; by all accounts, the technology they had available to them far surpassed what was available to the Abstergo in 2012, making that choice in words technically incorrect. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 13:54, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

It isn't clear that the meaning is 'the first human after the loss of all knowledge of the First Civilisation'. I've included the word 'again' hopefully this clears up the confusion Mercenari 15:05, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

they said they were more advanced in time, they had the power to travel through time, they knew of things to come, i think that they are the future of humanity that fled back in time for some reson71.60.215.38 03:27, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Except they said "We simply came...before."

Are they still alive?

Just throwing this out there, feel free to criticise me, but is it possible that "those who came before" are still around and simply took a similar path to some of the beings in 2001: A Space Odessey? I think subject 16 mentions something about them being in the sun if I am not mistaken, which has definate parallels with 2001. This would also explain the line: "When we were still flesh" as well as their ability to predict the future as the would be in a timeless form.

It could even be possible that Minverva was not a hologram at all, perhaps the temple allowed her to communicate with humans? 94.11.67.236 21:00, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well Altair, Enzio, Desmond, and subject 16 have some "those who came before" DNA in them (Altair, Enzio, and Desmond have eagle vision) Blix1ms0ns 02:18, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

A better name

Anyone agree with me that this article should be moved to The First Civilization? - Duelisttri 14:58, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

No, if you talk to members I'm sure they are more familiar with 'Those who came before', rather than 'the first civilization'. - Altaïr 17:10, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Those who came before is just a precarious name, when we don't know what to call them so we stick with what Vidic called them - Duelisttri 15:36, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah so we'll stick to 'Those who came before'? So I don't understand what your point is with this 'First Civilization' if you agree that we should stick with 'Those who came before'. -- Altaïr 17:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

My point is now that we have know them clear enough, we should call them with a more suitable name - Duelisttri 15:57, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

No, you stick to a name people are familiar with. You might know much about them, but other people might not, so if they want to research it, you use a title that they do know. - Altaïr 18:42, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Whilst I personally prefer the title of 'First Civilisation', I do feel the article should remain under the current title. As Altaïr has mentioned, people searching for information on this subject would most likely look up 'Those Who Came Before'. It is enough that we have the 'First Civilisation' mentioned in the lead sentence, and it allows us to prevent excess repetition within the article. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 01:50, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

I think it should be changed to 'The First Civilization', anyone looking to learn about them will likely be searching for either Minerva, Juno, or Piece of Eden. Those who came before just sounds too vague IMO. If you change the name of the article and link it with characters like Minerva and Juno then i think people are smart enough to figure it out. --Jedted 21:29, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

First Templars

I just had an epiphany. We say that Cain is the first templar as his mark is that of the knights. But is it not also possible that Those Who Came Before were the first templars and the most successful as they enslaved all the humans at the time, save for adam & eve. Therefore the first assassins (adam & eve) were created by their enemies themselves, the templars, not the other way around as was previously thought.

- You are stating a theory and then immediately asserting it as truth. Though Those Who Cam Before did indeed enslave the human race, they are not Templars. Being a Templar is not a concept that you can just stumble into by seeking dominion over men using artifacts. The Templars are a definite organization, begun by Cain, as the glyphs indicate.

The First Civilization were masters. But it was Cain that begun the organization we call Templars. Vaxis 06:12, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

When I said therefore I was speaking in terms of the theory. I know that there is no conclusive evidence so it is not a fact. Now I speak in regards to both this post and the one on the sword of Eden page. they are both theories that I know have faults but that is why I love ac. there are all these connections within the games and I like finding those. They also present some interesting philosophical arguments. But for your comment on the sword, there are differences between the sword in ac and the one in ac2. also, we can see some apprentices with the sword as well. The Eagle1701 04:18, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

An innocent question: Eve is to be resurrected so she can have a Those Who Came Before child with Desmond? -SPOILER- I thought Minerva murdered Lucy so she can be brought back. I'm confused.

That thing about Eve being resurrected to have a child with Desmond never happened. You have false information. Jackass2009 04:50, January 15, 2011 (UTC)

"The First Civilization" vs "Those Who Came Before"

I don't see why the name of this article can't be change to something more convenient. TWCB is too long winded and is more of a description than a title. During the credits for AC2 you hear Shaun refer to them as "The First Civilization" so it shouldn't create too much confusion for people visiting the site for the first time. Also, as i said in the other topic, most people seeking to learn about "Minerva's People" will search for either "Minerva", "Juno", or "Piece of Eden" rather than typing in "Those Who Came Before". I realize i'm probebly in the minority hear but i still stand by my vote to change the name of the article. Jedted 20:04, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

It may be what Shaun calls it, but it's not what we call it. Campbell430 20:37, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

You have a point Jedted, Shaun does call them the "First Civilisation" and indeed, I would prefer to have the article under that name, but the simple fact of the matter is that 95% of people who play the games and/or visit the official forums know them by the name of "Those Who Came Before" (or The Ones Who Came Before for some strange reason), so it makes more sense to have the article under the current title until a more official name is brought to light. Besides, "First Civilisation" is mentioned in the lead sentence, as well as being a redirect. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 23:17, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

The reason the majority refer to them that way is because they're not imaginative enough to come up with a better name. If Ubisoft hasn't invented a canonical name for them then i think falls to us to give them one, any better than TWCB atleast. Jedted 00:09, January 10, 2011 (UTC)

No, it doesn't fall to us to create anything. That would be fan-made, and as such is not allowed on our articles; we stick with what names are given in canon. Both TWCB and First Civilisation are mentioned in the article, that is good enough. If you want to hold a vote on which name the article should be under, you're more than welcome to, but I would suggest you not call your fellow fans "unimaginative". --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 00:19, January 10, 2011 (UTC)

I appologize for sounding like a broken record here but do we still need this long winded title for this article? In AC:Revelations Ezio and others refer to "Those People" as "The First Civilization". The people that read this Wiki are likely smart enough to understand who the article is refering to no matter what the name is. I know i'm not a moderator here but i really think this needs to be considered. 96.242.4.29 02:52, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

The encyclopaedia still names them, principally, "Those Who Came Before", so unless a major consensus for a move is made, it's staying where it is. -Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 03:54, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Scratch that. Just re-read it and the Encyclopeadia names them the First Civilization, so i'll move the article now. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 16:54, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like the technology in the Ac universe from TWCB

Prometheus could be one of the TWCB but worked with the humans.

What? --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 12:25, January 12, 2011 (UTC)

AC is an acronym for Assassins Creed and TWCB is an acroynm for Those Who Came Before.Blix1ms0ns 00:12, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

I am fully aware what the acronyms stand for, thank you. I was asking what exactly Prometheus (who isn't a god in Greek or Roman religion) has to do with "Sounds like the technology in the Ac universe from TWCB". --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 01:41, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

Remember the legend how pronetheus stole fire from the gods? Prometheus is in greek mythology at least. Besides it is only a theory Blix1ms0ns 02:20, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

Promethius was a titan, not a god, though he was trusted by the gods, don't open that can of worms though, because if the greek humans that came before the gods were TWCB, then you have to wonder, who are the grek titans who came before/ created the gods?

Reason for Humanity's creation?

Does anyone else think that Minerva's story sounds strikingly similar to one of the Creation myths by the Mesopotamians? They also said that humans were made to be the servants of the Gods. Marael 20:52, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the writers of AC 2 got inspiration from the mesopotamians.TheDudeMan123456 23:41, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

The writers for Assassins's Creed got their ideas from all walks of faith, even the ones that are more 'primitive' such as animism and ancestor worship. So some ideas in the story may be more familiar to those of us who know the Christian doctrines while some of us will know doctrines from other faiths such as Buddhism, Taoism, Evolution, etc. They mixed all of these ideas and beliefs that the world knows of and made a very complex storyline that we can all relate to in one way or another. In AC, there is no one supreme God as in Christianity. There are superhumans revered as gods. Sounds like Greek and Roman mythology, no? In reality, these fables stemmed from the stories that post-Flood humans told (if you believe in the Deluge) of the Nephilim, hybrid angel/humans that lived thousands of years ago that were much stronger and bigger than normal humans. They were known as bullies and unnatural. But in AC, they are considered hybrids, not of angels and humans, but of 'superhumans' and humans. UbiSoft, you are amazing. So all in all, it's very interesting how they created this game that we all know and play. Sorry for rambling.Strang3Happ3nings 21:44, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Greek/Roman Gods

I've noticed that the First Civilization has people with names like Roman Gods,and sice they're all powerful,could they actually be Roman Gods? Naruto 713 03:47, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

In AC Universe, the members of First Civilization, after the events following the First Disaster, depleted in number and became extinct later. And humans later would justify their (Those Who Came Before) existence by converting them in Gods and mythological characters (Roman, Greek et cetera) and thus explaining all those miraculous works.--Odranoelluta^Talk 04:27, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

If you had bothered to read the article, you would know all this. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 15:11, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

Reproduction

i read that they repoduce slowly i was thinking did the fertility rate of the first civlization was low i mean with all their techonlgy they wouldnt be able to be supper fertile or at leaast beable to clone them selves, why did they repuduce slowly?DeirdreKent101 03:20, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Baby in The Message memory in Revelations

There is a woman holding a baby wrapped in a bundle. She is the focus of 2 or 3 shots - could this baby (and also her) be the very distant ancestors of Desmond? Xeoxer 21:31, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

It's possible, but I'm not sure. Master Decoder 23:00, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Any identity given to the child is, at this point, speculation; hell, at this stage, we don't even know the women is the child's mother… --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 02:48, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

3rd of the ones that came before

So i just read Assassin's Creed The Fall, and i noticed that during the tunguska explosion, Nikolai witnessed three women with Jupiter from the first civilization. They were Juno, Minerva and a third woman. Has Ubisoft or the writers said anything about who she is? 

Here's the page itself. http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/054/2/5/those_that_came_before_by_lopez_the_heavy-d3a8b8o.jpg

My own conclusion would be that it is Diana because of the hairpieces, but that's just speculation. :) Tetsu Aero (talk) 21:38, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Mythological gods where all First civilization members?

I wonder if all myhological gods were actually first civilization members? Like, in subject 16:ns glyphs it shows the nordic goddess Idun possessing apples of eden. And the Greek god of war, Ares, could have been a succesfull general in the war against humanity. And Hephaestus, the greek god of crafts, was an inventor of weapons of even maybe the inventor of the pieces of eden.

Image Questions

Okay I have two questions.

1. Where did the A transcript of First Civilization history picture come from?

2. Where can I find that picture of MInerva and Juno teaching Altair how to build the hidden gun? 70.123.103.202 21:45, April 5, 2013 (UTC)junoist

1. Here, Ubiworkshop.

2 There's no such thing, as far as I know. --Crimson Knight _Intercom 21:51, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

I wonder what that transcript pictures means. As for the other picture, it's one part of a group of pictures that depict scenes from Altair's life: seeing his father's execution, building his library underneath Masyaf, etc. --70.123.103.202 00:31, April 6, 2013 (UTC)junoist

As far as I am aware, these 'other pictures' you speak of don't exist. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 10:19, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

[LINK REMOVED AS COVERED BY UBISOFT NDA] (last picture)

That's one of them.70.123.103.202 04:14, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

That picture being from an Alpha under NDA, that's not for spreading around the 'Net. As such, it's also not something the wiki can use. At least at the moment. Sadelyrate (siniath) 05:17, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

The link shouldn't even be on this talk page, as it's covered by Ubi's NDA, so I've removed it. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 08:29, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

That image was from the public blog before the current private alpha stuff started.70.123.103.202 01:38, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

The only picture that I recall being released before it should have been was the Abstergo guards carrying away Desmond's body. Not the one you're referring to. Slate Vesper (talk) 02:01, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand. Before the private alpha stuff, before AC3 was released, AC Initiates was a completely public website. On it was a public blog highlighting various news items relating to AC. That picture was included in one of them.70.123.103.202 03:21, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, but as it is now only accessible to those subject to the NDA, unless you can find it somewhere else on the web, we can't use it. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 11:54, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough.70.123.103.202 22:49, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Lucy

This page wrongfully states that Lucy was a sleeper agent. She was a Templar by her own will.--188.180.174.234 20:39, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Um... that isn't wrong, nor is it contradictory. She was a Templar by her own will, and she was used as a sleeper agent. --Crimson Knight _Intercom 20:56, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Post second disaster

The section describing the events of AC IV is terribly written. Its like two really long sentences.--188.180.174.234 20:59, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Then why don't you fix it instead of moaning about it in that manner? That's a very good way to offend and annoy someone greatly. --Crimson Knight _Intercom 21:02, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

The page is protected.--188.180.174.234 21:21, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Though it would be nice to operate with more decorum, I suspect. I've done a small bit of work on it, though it's hardly perfect. --Crimson Knight _Intercom 21:28, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Various stuff about First Civilization

So, I was discussins some details from AC universe with my friend, and I came to a set of conclusions. Remember, that these are just theories made by me, so if you know any canon info or better explanation regarding these theories, feel free to tell it. Though some theories might have been covered already, I will still tell about them form my perspective. Here they are:

1. First Civilization and their "next of kin".

As we know, after the Disaster only a handful of humans and First Civilization people survived. We also know that they crossbreeeded, resulting in people having such treats as Eagle Vision, which would ultimately lead to Desmond. So, the first theory is about Animus: if it reads memories through DNA, could it go as far as these people who survived, or, even better, those of the First Civilization? Even if it doesn`t, we still have the Observatory, full of these blood vials (or is it so ancient the DNA couldn`t have been read by Animus?).

2. Solutions of First Civilization.

Those who came before were so technologically advanced they could create Pieces of Eden, make humans and even bend them to their will. They could even see the future. And they also knew (eventually) that the Disaster was going to wipe out all life on Earth and reshape the climate. So, if they are so technologically advanced, they must have been capable of such thing as space flight. Why couldn`t they create ships and simply leave Earth? Of course, they might not have found any planets with suitable atmosphere (or any atmosphere at that matter), but they could simply just get as far away as possible from the sun and just wait it all out? Surely, the majority of people would not survive, but their numbers could have been greater.

3. Survival of First Civilization elite.

While thinking about the ending of AC 3, bearing in mind I have experienced AC Black Flag`s plot, I came to an interesting conclusion. Since we know about Aita being the Sage and Juno being set free from the Grand Temple, it seems that these messages left for Desmond might not be messages at all. Sure, they could see the future and send messages based on that, but what is the point of Juno being trapped in the Grand Temple if she was but a hologram? As we know, the Eye is sort of based on "Calculations", so I had an idea - what if Juno, Minerva and Jupiter survived? Not physically, of course, but they could have put their minds and conciousnesses in some sort of computer network and act as living beings from there?

That`s all, but one more thing regarding the theories themselves - I didn`t do it with a lot of sources, so I might have lost something. 93.159.243.62 16:18, February 11, 2014 (UTC)ThiefGamezo

Suggest editing the sentence "Aita would continuously reincarnate in human form upon the death of his previous host" by removing "upon the death of his previous host."  This is not accurate as shown that two Sages can exist at the same time.  Thom Kavanagh and Bartholomew Roberts are an example of this. Kavanagh was born in 1652 and died in 1706 and Roberts was born 1682.  So it shows that both lived during the same time and that two Sages can be alive at the same time.

Anubis3669 (talk) 14:17, October 21, 2014 (UTC)

Page move to "Isu"

Page should be moved to Isu, I think. For the sake of calling them by their actual name, I mean. Thoughts? -- Zero-ELEC (talk) 03:33, October 24, 2015 (UTC)

To my knowledge, the "Isu" is simply an era of time, like the Jurassic, or the Cretaceous. I've not seen anything yet that suggests this is the actual name of their species. I could be wrong though, in which case I think the source provided should go into a bit more detail than just naming the game. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:46, October 26, 2015 (UTC)

In the WWI simulation, in one of her monologues, Juno says "...[we], the Isu." Also, regarding your undoing of my edits in the Juno (2195 Isu Era) and Toba Catastrophe (2306 Isu Era) articles, the Isu Era dates I added also came from her monologues. Maxattac (talk) 09:41, October 26, 2015 (UTC)

Can I suggest you source those additions in future then, since I must have missed that bit about Toba being in 2306IE. As for your proposed article move, I support it. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 10:14, October 26, 2015 (UTC)

I don't. Let's stick to what they're most commonly known by. For all we know, "the Isu" simply refers to the people of the Isu Era, and not their entire civilization (i.e. past eras). -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 10:50, October 26, 2015 (UTC)

After playing the game a bit more, I'm quite confident we should move the article. During the WWI simulation Juno states - I'm paraphrasing here - "...the Isu, we who created you [humans]." That's pretty explicit for me. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:52, October 27, 2015 (UTC)

Isu is definitely what their actual name is. And we don't stick to what they're commonly known by, otherwise Al Mualim wouldn't be Rashid ad-Din Sinan. -- Zero-ELEC (talk) 21:24, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the article should be move to Isu. Not to mention we aren't clear that this is literally the first civilization in existence, just an earlier one. There's nothing to say they literally are the first. As of yet, I have it listed as a redirect, but I think it should be replaced entirely.GZilla311 (talk) 23:07, November 1, 2015 (UTC)

Then I don't have any real reason to oppose (aside from it being quite a big spoiler for many). -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 13:07, November 6, 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if I'd consider the name a major spoiler, personally, but that's just me. I'll move the article now. I see no real need to change our links within the other articles immediately. EDIT: Apparently I can't move it. An Admin would need to do it for us. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 13:25, November 6, 2015 (UTC)

Ancient Astronaut Theory

Can anyone confirm that the Isu are actually aliens? 27.49.32.98 06:47, May 27, 2016 (UTC)AgentSmith

I'm quite sure they themselves mentioned that they are not aliens.--Bovkaffe (talk) 17:08, May 27, 2016 (UTC)

Should it be 'isu' instead of 'Isu'?

Since isu is the name of their race, like we are called humans, shouldn't isu be lower case? We don't capitalize humans in every instance, after all. —unsigned comment by AntiquatedCreator (talk · contr)

Interesting question. This has been an issue in Star Wars where humans are lower-case while all other sapient species are upper-case; Wookieepedia ultimately settled on having humans upper-case also—just some fun facts. However, Isu is capitalized in both Syndicate and in Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide. Also, make sure to sign your posts next time with four tildes like so: ~~~~. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 02:19, December 20, 2016 (UTC)

Isu vs. Precursor civilization

I wanted to note that The Essential Guide seems to specifically reserve the name Isu for the species but not the civilization, and "Precursor civilization" for the civilization itself. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 10:03, February 11, 2017 (UTC)

The species and the civilisation are, for all intent and purposes, one and the same so far as the Isu are concerned. Unlike humans, who have developed countless cultures or "civilisations" (i.e. Western, Eastern, Roman, Norse, Mayan etc.), there's nothing, to my knowledge, that suggests the Isu underwent a similar cultural development. The names are interchangeable, that's all. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 12:11, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

To be fair, the Isu did have a War of Unification, suggesting that there were at least two seperate cultures before they united. The Wikia Editor (talk) 13:40, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

That's not actually what I meant. Rechecking the The Essential Guide, I think I was wrong to think that Isu might not be usable for the civilization because after all, we can say the Isu civilization in the same way we say "human civilization". However, part of my point is that you won't use the name "First Civilization" or "Precursor" as the name of the species, in the same way that you won't say "Chinese" is interchangeable as the name for the homo sapiens sapiens species. Anyways, I think my point is actually rather moot. Since "Precursor" and "First Civilization" are historiographical names likely not used by the Isu themselves, and for all intents and purposes, the humans probably won't bother distinguishing a species name and a name for their civilization and/or state. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 17:05, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

Known Isu

I experimented a little bit with the list of known Isu, as not only was it still missing several Isu, the list was already getting incredibly long. In light of Valhalla's revelations about the Isu, and Darby's comments clarifying this particular lore, we now know that the Isu were not as globalized and unified a society as one might've previously assumed. These geographical distinctions seem to be based on the geographical region of their respective pantheon, and these distinctions therefore seem like a logical way to make the list of known Isu a little more organized.

There are a few issues, namely Xarios, Melitta and Neokles, who are seemingly not based on any actual deities but are logically connected to the Greek pantheon by association; the Tunguska entity, who is also seemingly connected somehow to Minerva and Juno; and "The Messenger", who of course seemingly have a connection to Egypt. In the case of The Messenger, as it seems to be more of a title, I would actually consider removing it from this particular list.

Alternatively, with the list growing ever longer, I think another viable option might be to remove the gallery altogether, but as we also have pretty long ones on the Mentor and Grand Master pages, I don't think there's an immediate need for that right now. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 11:26, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Norse Isu images

Should the Roman Isu Alethia, Juno, Minerva and Jupiter have their jotunn pictures and not their normal ones in the Norse Isu section? feels weird that Minerva is the same in all the others but not in the Norse. BearticWiki (talk) 17:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that's the direction we're going. Images of an Isu's Greco-Roman form in one section and Norse form another. As for Minerva, I think her duplicate pic under Hindu gods should be [wiki noimage.jpg] since we technically don't have an image of the deity outright named "Saraswati". I admit I'm not sure about the Celtic section. While we also don't have a pic of Sulis, she's also known as "Sulis Minerva" both in Valhalla and irl, so one could argue to keep her current pic. – Darman (talk) 18:05, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The Jotunn in Eivor's interpretations of Odin's memories are not a representation of what they actually looked like. We already know what their real appearances are, those should be used instead. I do not see why a factually incorrect appearance should be used to represent them in an article about the Isu. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 19:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

I just reverted these gallery images not realizing the edit was already made before this talk page entry - not intending to start an errand war. However, if people insist on using the depictions of Aletheia, Juno, Minerva and Jupiter as they appear in Eivor's interpretations of Odin's memory as opposed to what they really looked like, I'd like to use some compelling arguments. The only reason why some of the other Norse Isu would have their Jotunn or Orlog tablet appearance, or why the Norse Isu are seen wearing clothes they did not actually wear, is because there is no better image right now - the same as it is for Greek/Etruscan/Roman gods who have yet to make their proper appearance. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 19:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

should the Isu Foreman and the Isu Harbormaster be in the greek isu list? probably not since they arent named but they are still isu that couldve existed? so? maybe there should be a Misc tier beneth all the other catagories. BearticWiki (talk) 13:40, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Isu in Valhalla, Eivor's visions

This has been a long time coming, but Valhalla and Dawn of Ragnarok has produced a huge mess in to the AC lore, especially in regards to Eivor's visions of Odin. Therefore, we really should discuss and plan how we are going to proceed going forward. There's various topics that I like to have input on.

1)Isu factions/grouping. Previously, there were quite a number of articles with the introduction specifically grouping the Isu as part of various "factions" based on the realm/city they came from i.e. Asgardian Isu, "Atlantean Isu", or by their "race?" such as "Aesir Isu" and "Vanir Isu". Which doesn't make much sense since we all known them as simply Isu without much identifying traits. The list on the Isu page is pretty much inconsistent, because some are grouped according to the pantheons, and then the others by the realm/city. I think it makes a clearer sense if we standardize for grouping the Isu according to their respective pantheons. It's easier and we have a quite a number of known pantheons anyway.

2)Adding on this, Eivor's visions in both the base game and Dawn of Ragnarok. WE do no know that the dreams are based on Eivor's own interpretations of Odin's memories, albeit with a whole lot of Norse mythology and folklore as a filter. However, we have no idea how much of those memories are filtered and tweaked such that it fits Eivor's understanding. We have no clue that's the actual events that Odin and other Aesir Isu went through. Therefore, I like to propose that the biography for each of the individuals part of Eivor's dreams to be seperated as a subsection, and not as part of their actual Isu life.

3)Individuals in Eivor's visions. Human? Isu? Dwarves? I can't help but wonder why some editors come to the assumption that every individual we encountered in Eivor's visions to be immediately an Isu? We have seen sort of a similar situation in Odyssey's Fate of Atlantis DLC. Aletheia's simulations of Elysium, Hades, Atlantis all had human, hybrids and Isu living in each realm. We also had a case of Elpis, the human lover of Atlas, gaining Isu powers/becoming a hybrid through an experiment. The Jotuns/Dwarves/Muspels we see in the game and DoR are again based on Eivor's interpretations, so we really have no idea who are specifically Isu, when some of them can simply be humans/hybrids. So, my suggestion is to remove leave out the Isu category for all of them, leaving only that appeared in the Animus Anomalies of the Aesir.

Me and several editors have discussed this quite a bit on the Discord server, and while most of us minus a few agree to these changes, it's not fair if we just go ahead without seeking input from you guys on the Wiki. So I do like some input and suggestions from you guys as well. XOdeyssusx (talk) 03:42, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I fully agree with this. - Soranin (talk) 03:45, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll play devil's advocate and say the following:

1) I'd say there are different isu races just like there are different human races, these are mainly divided by the big geographical zones. Maybe they are not divided by ethnicity like we humans are. Perhaps for them is something else related to the nine "Isu clans". Perhaps, after the War of Unificacion there were 9 countries and 9 countries only. (?) Weird, but still a possibility. I do agree on the rework tho.

2) Eivor is reliving Odin's genetic memory in a natural way, without a machine like the Animus. And since all is happening in her head, her subconscious plays a part of it. However, it's true that DoR is a huge problem and did little to nothing to resolve itself. They could have added more Isu cinematics like the one from The Anomalies but nope. It's a mess. Perhaps the conflicting lore template can help us here instead?

3) For what I know: There are no humans in Asgard, there are a few in Jotunheim, and there are none in Svartalfheim. The difference between NPCs and the absence of any human mention in them is what led me to this conclussion. In Asgard, there's no telling what is human and what is Isu since all of them look like humans in Eivor's dreams here. In Jotunheim, there are both Isu (frost giants), humans and hybrids (seen as regular humans, not as humans with blue skin). How am I certain? There's a quest where Havi must impress a group of children, one of them speaks like the Isu, calling people in a fancy way... like for example: "fire-stealer, truth-usurper, eagle-bearer" something like that, Idk how that thing is called in English. Havi asks to this girl "how do you speak that tongue?" "My mom taught me", she replies. In Svartalfheim, there are no mention to humans and the human-isu war is happening whatsoever. We could say the Dwarves are Isu since their tech is classified as Isu tech, if that logic is correct. Perhaps we could still say there are Isu, by default, until said otherwise.
DoR is such a mess...Cristophorus35 (talk) 04:42, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I say that any figure or event expressly not seen or referenced outside of the visions (or simulation since I think some of this should apply to FoA) should only be described in reference to mythology and in the frame of said vision (or simulation). There’s two needed approaches to this. One for those that exist in IRL mythology like Surtr and ones that don’t like Calder. In Surtr’s case we explain what we can about the individual from a mythological standpoint and then have a section for his actions within the vision and explicitly acknowledging that they are happening in a vision. For Calder we can only describe his actions in the vision which necessarily means a different approach in the intro lede than Surtr. “Calder is an individual who appeared as a Muspel in a vision of Eivor as she relived the memories of Odin“ vs. “Surtr is a figure in Norse mythology where he leads to Muspelheim jotnar in Ragnarok”. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 05:04, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

That famous Norse god Isu Technician. I don't think it's a mess - I could have done without the ambiguity around what the dwarves/elves are - but we can comfortably tell the broad strokes in a biography/history and the folkloric specifics in a mythology section for the most part, good luck to the one that takes on Jupiter/Zeus/Suttungr. Seems weird for Darby McDevitt to make efforts to diversify Isu culture just for the wiki to go "Gosh what could these factional divides mean?" We've been told Jotnar = Greco-Roman = Southern Europe 'realm' one way or another, it's not a stretch to say the blue guys are the Isu of that region and the thralls called humans are... human. Other stuff like, I dunno, Odin gave Jupiter a giant, magic cup for a giant kegger is something else. (As an aside, my theory is that the Nine Realms don't cover the entire planet but extend at best to the reach of the Viking known world.) Although, since we're talking about it now can we please shift mythology sections built from Wikipedia to a behind the scenes section and just refer to what licensed sources tell us in there instead? And not host fan renders of in-game assets? Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 12:49, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I personally agree that, although Eivor is seeing a vision of Norse mythology, those visions have Odin's own memories as a base. Even if some things differ of their real counterparts because of the mythological veil (ex: Mímir being Yggdrasil and the Nornir being the Calculations), the actual events that happened in the Isu Era are somewhat transpired in these altered representations. I think that we could find a middle ground: we could create something like the "ambigously canonical" box where we insert the lore that we interpret from the visions. That way, Fandom users know that those paragraphs are dream interpretations and might not be exactly accurate. - TiagoFF (talk) 20:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Respectfully, I disagree. And that's not the point of the ambig canon tag that we have. Eivor's dreams are still canon, but not in the sense it's completely what Odin or other Isu went through. I cannot imagine a reader who goes onto to the page of Odin, reading his Isu life to find Norse mythology elements in his biography. That's basically the point, the memories are altered, filtered with the mythological elements, such that we should NOT take word for word that Odin the Isu and Odin in Eivor's dream went through the same thing. Only way I can compromise is thus to seperate Eivor's dreams from the main biography. XOdeyssusx (talk) 02:19, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Respectfully id like to disagree with that, we know from the mythalogical arcs that some things are only a myhtalogical veil and that the events in them are the actual events transpiring during isu times. Take the Truth sequence from valhalla as an aexample, there are slight dialouge changes between it and ofcourse the mythalogical filter has changed everything in the room but the base actual event is exactly the same as it is in the mythaloigcal arcs. They watch the world burn, they sit down in their chairs, in this they drink a fluid and in the other one the get injected, and then they exit with their poe's to face their doom. Id say all the events are like this, with slight dialouge changes and ofcourse the visual changes, Ie fenrir not being a wolf, the builder not growing 10 feet etc. So i think we should write it as if its actual isu events and "translate" the parts that are mythaloigcal, and if we cant come up with anything concrete we leave it vauge. Because id doubt this isu storyline will pop up in more games then perhaps ac: rift so why not write it like isu stuff for now and just change it in the future if there are discrepancies.BearticWiki (talk) 05:53, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

That Ragnarok scene is only possible to decipher because we have the Animus Anomalies to begin with to make the comparisons. If that anomaly scene isnt included at all, I'm pretty sure we all can come up with all kinds of small to big interpretationss. You are asking to decipher and interpret the visions based on our own asumptions and declare it canon because we have 0 inputs from the development team. That isn't how that works. The issue is again the mythological part that me and other editors are pointing out. And I am certainly not comfortable knowing that we are adding info to the wiki based on that.XOdeyssusx (talk) 07:11, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think asserting something cause it probably won't get mentioned again is the right approach. I don't believe Thor is said to be an Odinsson outside the mythological veil™ same as Vidar so is this proposal saying Vidar (and Frigg come to think of it) doesn't get to be called an Isu at all and Thor has to be stated to be Odin's bearded dream child? Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 11:12, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about the ambigously canocical box. I was suggesting the creation of a new box, like "The enclosed content is an interpretation of altered memories.", where we could insert the "translated" visions. I'm well aware that they are canon. - TiagoFF (talk) 13:11, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with TiagoFF. Those dreams aren't happening without any reason, Eivor is relieving Odin's memories in a natural way since she's her "reincarnation"; his DNA is in her blood. These dreams are with the myth filter on because of she's using her head instead of a machine. The Isu events there are altered because of her subconscious. A new box making that clear would be useful IMO.Cristophorus35 (talk) 19:44, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I have no opposition to that so if you can make that work then go ahead. Otherwise, I'm still sticking to list those events as Eivor's visions section.XOdeyssusx (talk) 02:00, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, the ambig borders don't display on phones which is how most Fandom readers view wikis: https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Seth?useskin=fandommobile Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 02:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay then why do some of those dreams directly contradict more direct memories such as the circumstances surrounding Baldr’s death and Loki’s imprisonment? I don’t think we need a box; an earlier suggestion was to have the vision/memory stuff be explicitly stated in the article body preceding describing the events. Until someone can explain why dwarves have less hugr than “other” Isu I can not agree to classifying them as anything outside of the mythological veil. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 03:30, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

In regard to the alleged contradictions for Baldr and Loki:

• The Rescue - Loki tells the Muspels of Baldr's only weakness. Only says to Frigg that he didn't confess the act so he locked him up in Asgard. However, he gets free and releases his children, including Fenrir (as said by Juno in the post-credits scene).
• Pride of the Aesir - The Muspels kill Baldr by using mistletoe. Loki is presumably witnessing the scne some way.
• Animus Anomalies: Quartzite Bridge - Loki tells Aletheia of Baldr's death.
• Post-credits scene - Juno tells Odin that Loki managed to flee, to which he deduces that he was indeed involved in his son's death.
• Animus Anomalies: Kildesbig - Odin's soldiers arrest Loki. Due to the lack of proof surronding the charges for indirectly killing Baldr, he is cleared and released.

As to the dwarves having less hugr than the general Isu, we know that if they are Isu, they are from a lower... let's say "caste". If they are of another especies, they surely don't possess Knowledge, might be its mythological counterpart. - TiagoFF (talk) 15:29, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Well they're the Dark Elves to Alfheim's Light Elves, Baldr is the god of light, and light is the mystery hugr..? Seidr? That Surtr wants. Dawn of Ragnarok has embellished Loki's role in killing Baldr, sure, but that's in part because Valhalla wasn't developed with a year 2 of DLC in mind. On the matter of grouping Isu by pantheon, it may be worth doing it as X pantheon and a Related subheading as Atlantis isn't actually a Greek myth and The Messengers aren't Egyptian gods AFAWK. Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 19:47, 4 May 2022 (UTC)