Template talk:Ancients nav

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Ancients and Templar split

This is an ongoing discussion.

May as well start this. While we have just finished a discussion on the Order of the Ancients' talk page about whether they are separate from the Templars (they are, they had a brief window when they both existed independently, and are more akin to the Isu-worshipping later Instruments of the First Will), some Ancients like Kings Arthur and Alfred have ideological overlap with the Templars. Meanwhile, Sol notes that, "The Golden Turtles' exact relationship with either has never been confirmed. They're only referred to as relating to "the Order", without specification, and we've only been inferring that it is broadly the Templars and calling them the Order of the Ancients due to time period". I believe(?) some Valhalla devs said that the Ancients are intentionally meant to be early Templars in all but name, though I could be mistaken, but there's the issue of belief differences again.

Clay Kaczmarek's old glyph/rifts add more mess, since they speak of Templars before the knightly order's public founding, there's no official line demarking who is Ancient or Templar (such minutiae is below Ubi's concerns, really), and as Sol said, I feel we have been treating any Assassin-opposed group as Ancients so long as they date to pre-1000s CE. Do we take everyone's beliefs on case-by-case basis to determine their placement? And who are we to decide? This site has accidentally canonized a few things before. We know devs, actors, and authors have turned to pages here to try and make sense of/refresh on the world they're entering. If we mess up sorting something here, what could that do? – Darman (talk) 01:05, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say they are separate enough to warrant their own articles but related enough to be in the same navbox. It is a fine line. Hidden Ones to Assassins is as of now mostly just rebranding while OotA to Templars is a spin-off due to shift in beliefs. But organizations can have changing beliefs without being considered completely separate entities. Look at current political parties and their predecessors. While maybe not the best I feel "Templar" can be used similar to "Judeo-Christian" to encompass related factions. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 08:40, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Has anything changed lore-wise since this drop-down layout was implemented in reaction to Valhalla in the first place? Isolated templates was what I had in mind in the Templars template talk back then when I queried it but as a navigation aid, I find this is far more useful getting around the site. We know Hidden Ones to Assassins was largely a name change (Basim sure feels that way) with the Ancients to Templars being far less clean a transition but it's not misleading to say the Ancients became Templars as opposed to, for example, claiming the Children of Cain became the Order of the Ancients (just they influenced the Templars somewhere along the line) or confidently asserting that Alfred was a Templar. Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 09:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)