Talk:Harpe of Perseus

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Not the sword used by Perseus

It's already been established that Perseus used a Sword of Eden, of which this sword is assuredly not. Ghost Leader (talk) 05:52, March 20, 2018 (UTC)

Actually, the game description doesn't even suggest that this sword was used by Perseus in the first place unlike other weapons in the game named after heroes which claim to be genuine replicas. Even if the game description did state that it was Perseus's sword, it would not contradict the fact that he was known to have wielded a Sword of Eden. Individuals can have multiple weapons and use different swords throughout their life or in different battles. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 06:33, March 20, 2018 (UTC)

Two separate articles

I think the odyssey weapon and the origins weapon should be separate articles since they are clearly two different weapons. Unless this article is more about the perceived weapon wielded by Perseus, as in Perseus wielded a Sword of Eden to kill Medusa and these were alleged to be that sword, in which case the article needs a revamp and should include the sickle found in Temple of Dionysos in Sparta. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 05:43, November 3, 2018 (UTC)

If the two swords have clearly distinct appearances such that we can tell just by looking that they are not the same weapon, then they should indeed have two separate article. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 06:11, November 3, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah they are obviously different; Origins used the Canova model while Odyssey uses the original Cellini one. However I think we could have an article called Perseus's Sword of Eden, give its background, and then mention those two as claimants as well as the Sickle of Hermes in Sparta. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 06:23, November 3, 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with your suggestion. XOdeyssusx (talk) 06:58, November 3, 2018 (UTC)

Still needs splitting

But I’m not sure how to go about doing that. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 02:04, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

Propose delete

I have proposed deletion based on the discussion on discord between me, Master Yi and Lacrossedeamon:

Sima Today at 10:03: Well there are two different weapons called Harpe of Perseus, one in Origins and one in Odyssey. I'm not sure why we'd need three articles for it

Jhonnies Today at 10:07:

We should just port the info from the ody page to the one that has both of them

Lacrossedeamon Today at 10:08: No I think we should make the one that has them both just the origins one

Sima Today at 10:08:

I suggest having two, one for Odyssey and one for Origins

Lacrossedeamon Today at 10:08:

^

But I also suggest leaving the Perseus's Sword of Eden page as is, maybe add the Cursed Gorgoneion as a claimant —unsigned comment by Soranin (talk · contr)

First, the extensive debate on Discord is really the kind of discussion that should have occurred on this actual talk page instead so that those who don't frequent Discord can easily refer to it, and it would be left here for the records. I also couldn't really understand the issues discussed and the various proposals from just the excerpts given here, but I do appreciate the effort Soranin.

To summarize, we currently have four articles on the Harpe of Perseus:

1. Perseus' Sword of Eden, for the Sword of Eden mentioned in the glyphs as having been wielded by Perseus and which has never clearly appeared in Assassin's Creed elsewhere.
2. Harpe of Perseus, a general page for the type of weapon that is the Harpe of Perseus.
3. Harpe of Perseus (Origins), for the weapon marketed as the Harpe of Perseus that can be found in Origins
4. Harpe of Perseus (Odyssey), for the weapon acquired in Odyssey after killing the Writhing Dread.

We all agree that the weapons in Origins and Odyssey are clearly different, but Sima initially proposed that Perseus' Sword of Eden be merged with the harpe from Odyssey because the latter exhibits the glow of Pieces of Eden and also artist depictions of the harpe may not be accurate. Soranin countered that we not only cannot know they are one and the same, but that he thought they were definitely meant to be different. Lacrosse pointed out that technically, the glyph only shows Perseus killing Keto with the Sword of Eden, an event in the myths which occurred after his killing of Medusa, and therefore his Sword of Eden could have been the Cursed Gorgoneion. Both are perplexed how the harpe could have remained with the Writhing Dread still if Perseus was supposed to have slayed Medusa with it.

• The final proposal by Sima is to keep one article for the weapon in Origins, one for the weapon in Odyssey, and to delete the article on Perseus' Sword of Eden since we do not have articles on every Sword of Eden.
• Joranin suggested merging the one from Odyssey into this page, which covers both weapons. Upon Lacrosse's and Sima's counter-suggestions, he decided instead to create the new page on the weapon from Origins and put this page which covers both weapons up for deletion.
• Lacrosse's proposal is instead to keep the article on Perseus' Sword of Eden because he finds that having such a page to explain the uncertainty around its identity is useful. He also suggested that this page be rewritten as only covering the weapon from Origins.

Here is my perspective. It appears that what has happened is that Odeyssus modified the original article on the weapon from Origins, i.e. this page, to being a general page on Harpes of Perseus. This is according to our policy to also have articles on general types of weapons rather than a specific model. We decided upon this years back when reorganizing weapons pages, and it matters in cases where we have a weapon with a generic name like "Mace" for example. There is a particular weapon only named "Mace" in Origins and another particular weapon given that same basic name in Unity which to this day we have not created a page for... For the sake of organization, we have an article on maces in general—as in the actual type of weapon called mace which we have dozens upon dozens of examples for—while maintaining separate pages for the Mace in Origins and the Mace in Unity, putting these two articles on the same tier of organization as other pages on specific weapons. This might sound complicated, but it was the best way we found to resolve this matter because otherwise you'd have a weapon in every game which randomly disappears into an article on the weapon type or is merged with a different weapon from a different game just because they share the same name.

It looks like going off of this policy, Odey changed this page to be about Harpes of Perseus in general whereas he had intended there to be individual pages for the specific Harpe of Perseus in Origins and Odyssey (but didn't get around to creating a new page for the former). I think this is actually a mistake, but I don't blame Odey for it. The Harpe of Perseus, unlike mace, smallsword, battleaxe, etc. is not actually a type of weapon. There should only be a general page like that if it is a type of weapon, and there are many examples of it in the games. Instead, we just have two different swords which happen to share the same name, so a disambiguation page would suffice. To drive home this point, we could hypothetically have a page on harpes in general if we have many examples of different harpes since that is type of sword, but not a page on different Harpes of Perseus.

I know you guys might think that this extensive explanation might be exhausting not necessary, but I think it is important for future reference for you guys to understand the underlying reason there ended up being so many pages on the Harpe of Perseus.

My suggestion is this:

• Rewrite this page to be about the Origins weapon only and delete Soranin's newly-created page for it. If we are to have one page focused solely on the Origins weapon, it doesn't make sense that that page be a newly created page without the relevant edit history or the talk page explaining the changes. It also makes more sense that that page be the page originally written for the Origins weapon. In fact, this page still is largely written about the Origins weapon, only that it happens to include the stats for the Odyssey weapon as well.
• Keep the page on the Odyssey harpe separate.
• I am neutral on whether or not we should keep "Perseus' Sword of Eden". I was leaning towards having it deleted, but now I am starting to lean towards keeping it. I don't think the argument that we don't have pages on every Sword of Eden is a strong one because based on policy, nothing is stopping us from doing so if we wish. At the same time, I also don't see a strong need to have a specific page for Perseus' Sword of Eden except for Lacrosse's point that it could be useful to document due to the questions over its identity. I think he might be right that it could be beneficial although I don't know how much it is needed. Yet Sima also pointed out that we don't know if Perseus' Sword of Eden might actually be Sword of Eden 1 or Sword of Eden 2, which is also true. And yet again, I don't know if uncertainty over a subject being the same as another subject should preclude a separate page being made for it for the time being. All interesting points and counter-points. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 20:39, May 7, 2020 (UTC)

I'm good with whatever you guys decide. Although Sol brings a good point about this page having the history of edits. Gun to my head, keep this and delete the one I made. - Soranin (talk) 20:49, May 7, 2020 (UTC)

My points were already accurately transcribed so I don’t really have anything left to say here. I will not that we don’t need a general Harpe weapon type because like so many other misnamed weapons in the game Odyssey's Harpe is not actually a harpe which I added to this pages trivia a while back. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 22:02, May 7, 2020 (UTC)

We definitely should make this page the Origins weapon instead of a pseudo disambiguation page. Itt's not a weapons category or a particular known weapon. We should definitely keep "Perseus' Sword of Eden". It was implied he had one in ACII and things from Glyphs tend to come back.  —Zero-ELEC (talk) 04:34, May 8, 2020 (UTC)

Voicing my support of deleting this page. 'Harpe of Perseus' as a generalized term sounds... weird, at best, and that's how this page's described on the disambiguation page. So, summarized: Keep HoP (Odyssey), keep HoP (Origins), keep Hop (disambig), keep Perseus's Sword of Eden. Delete this. Sadelyrate (siniath) 13:22, May 31, 2020 (UTC)