Talk:Order of the Ancients
Merge with Egyptian Rite of the Templar Order
This is an ongoing discussion.There's no evidence, as yet, to suggest that the Order of the Ancients and the Egyptian Rite of the Templar Order are the same, or even a related, organisation. As such, there is no reason for these articles to be merged. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:35, September 15, 2017 (UTC)
- I am reviving this topic from back when Origins released, since plenty more information has come with Odyssey, Valhalla, and Valhalla's near-endless expansions/supplementary material (and maybe Mirage?). In keeping with both the 2020 community discussion in which I had no part and Sol's proposal to merge Hidden Ones and Assassins on the basis that they kept the same beliefs under a new name, I think we should do the same for the Ancients and Templars. As I recall, even if Alfred betrayed the Ancients and set the foundations that Hugues de Payens and Bernard de Clairvaux used to properly found the Templars, both groups seek Pieces of Eden to amplify their control over humanity. I think the only difference is whether they wanted humanity subservient to the Isu—almost like the Instruments of the First Will, which Shaun Hastings even notes in Valhalla—with themselves as the slave drivers, or if they were fully in the front seat. I also do not think any branch differences, e.g. between the English Rite and the Golden Turtles, are to define the "core" Order, like how the Renaissance-era Spanish Assassins still severed their fingers even if it was no longer required. – Darman (talk) 05:00, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Chiming in to give my opinion on the matter and to apologize to you Darman, it was a bit impulsive of me to remove the merge notice right away. Well, in my opinion, we shouldn't merge these two together since despite having similar objectives and the Order's disappearance involving Alfred setting the foundations for the Templars, like you said, they have different structures and different beliefs: the Order directly worships the Isu and tries to return society to its mainframe during the Isu Era, whilst the Templars only worship the Father of Understanding (an influence of Christianity in its inner tenets) and seek a New World Order based only on pure control, only using the Pieces of Eden to achieve that goal; they do not try to establish a society similar to what was before. Even then, the Order's disbandment might have originated the Instruments, an enemy faction of the Templars who behave essentially like the Order did in the past. The similarities between the Order and the Templars don't compare to the ones between Hidden Ones and Assassins, they're essentially the same organization, with the same creed, the same practices and rituals, the same insignia, only suffering a name change due to cultural influences. Even within themselves, the Assassins practically consider members of the Hidden Ones to be essentially Assassins themselves. - TiagoFF (talk) 17:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
- Something that I just remembered, while I did not participate in it, as I said above, I believe most of the users who did comment in Sol's discussion on this matter in 2020 decided that the Ancients and the Templars were to be seen as the same. I don't believe anything has significantly changed since then series-wise, as that period mostly featured Valhalla's expansions unrelated to the Ancients and now Mirage. – Darman (talk) 20:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Then how do we fit the apparently Isu-worshipping Ancients to the initially-monotheistic Templars, while still keeping them separate from the Instruments? They still want world domination, but it seems through different means. At the same time, I believe Alfred's pseudonym of a "Poor Fellow-Soldier of Christ [and of the Temple of Solomon]", the Templars' full name, is intentional. – Darman (talk) 16:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Bumping this topic. Aside from the old community consensus linked above—which it seems is a now reduced to code text?—do any more recent media, or other users, argue in favor/against merging? – Darman (talk) 00:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Something that I just remembered, while I did not participate in it, as I said above, I believe most of the users who did comment in Sol's discussion on this matter in 2020 decided that the Ancients and the Templars were to be seen as the same. I don't believe anything has significantly changed since then series-wise, as that period mostly featured Valhalla's expansions unrelated to the Ancients and now Mirage. – Darman (talk) 20:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- Chiming in to give my opinion on the matter and to apologize to you Darman, it was a bit impulsive of me to remove the merge notice right away. Well, in my opinion, we shouldn't merge these two together since despite having similar objectives and the Order's disappearance involving Alfred setting the foundations for the Templars, like you said, they have different structures and different beliefs: the Order directly worships the Isu and tries to return society to its mainframe during the Isu Era, whilst the Templars only worship the Father of Understanding (an influence of Christianity in its inner tenets) and seek a New World Order based only on pure control, only using the Pieces of Eden to achieve that goal; they do not try to establish a society similar to what was before. Even then, the Order's disbandment might have originated the Instruments, an enemy faction of the Templars who behave essentially like the Order did in the past. The similarities between the Order and the Templars don't compare to the ones between Hidden Ones and Assassins, they're essentially the same organization, with the same creed, the same practices and rituals, the same insignia, only suffering a name change due to cultural influences. Even within themselves, the Assassins practically consider members of the Hidden Ones to be essentially Assassins themselves. - TiagoFF (talk) 17:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
I propose that it be merged with the main Templars page. While a lot of their activity was in Egypt, they still represented the organization as a whole. Levantine Assassin (talk) 11:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Serpent's design
The serpent of the symbol is identical in its curves and general design to one depiction of Apep in the ancient Egyptian paintings. Curious detail, for certain, but enough to mention in the Trivia? Sadelyrate (siniath) 09:16, July 15, 2018 (UTC)
- Basing the design of the Order's symbol on Apep would make sense, considering how Aya/Amunet and Bayek can be called champions of Apep's opposite, Ma'at; they use her symbol, a feather, in all of their kills. Sadelyrate (siniath) 09:38, July 15, 2018 (UTC)
Zoroastrianism?
Given the article on the Magi, as well as the emblem of the OotA during the Peloponnesian War, I wonder how much the Order is actually based on Zoroastrianism. 'Cause there's starting to be too many shared details. :D Sadelyrate (siniath) 15:10, December 8, 2018 (UTC)
- Have you read Wikipedia’s article on them. It says Herodotos claimed the Magi were Zoroastrian priests who were behind the assassination of Cambyses II and all the shenanigans that followed after. Which is great for my new theory that Cambyses was a Sage which is why OoTA killed him. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 15:41, December 8, 2018 (UTC)
Roman Empire
Think the page could do with some more information on the Order during the founding/time of the Roman Empire - see the French version of the page. —unsigned comment by Jonjoshelvey (talk · contr)