Talk:Order of the Ancients

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Merge with Egyptian Rite of the Templar Order

This is an ongoing discussion.

There's no evidence, as yet, to suggest that the Order of the Ancients and the Egyptian Rite of the Templar Order are the same, or even a related, organisation. As such, there is no reason for these articles to be merged. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:35, September 15, 2017 (UTC)

I am reviving this topic from back when Origins released, since plenty more information has come with Odyssey, Valhalla, and Valhalla's near-endless expansions/supplementary material (and maybe Mirage?). In keeping with both the 2020 community discussion in which I had no part and Sol's proposal to merge Hidden Ones and Assassins on the basis that they kept the same beliefs under a new name, I think we should do the same for the Ancients and Templars. As I recall, even if Alfred betrayed the Ancients and set the foundations that Hugues de Payens and Bernard de Clairvaux used to properly found the Templars, both groups seek Pieces of Eden to amplify their control over humanity. I think the only difference is whether they wanted humanity subservient to the Isu—almost like the Instruments of the First Will, which Shaun Hastings even notes in Valhalla—with themselves as the slave drivers, or if they were fully in the front seat. I also do not think any branch differences, e.g. between the English Rite and the Golden Turtles, are to define the "core" Order, like how the Renaissance-era Spanish Assassins still severed their fingers even if it was no longer required. – Darman (talk) 05:00, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Chiming in to give my opinion on the matter and to apologize to you Darman, it was a bit impulsive of me to remove the merge notice right away. Well, in my opinion, we shouldn't merge these two together since despite having similar objectives and the Order's disappearance involving Alfred setting the foundations for the Templars, like you said, they have different structures and different beliefs: the Order directly worships the Isu and tries to return society to its mainframe during the Isu Era, whilst the Templars only worship the Father of Understanding (an influence of Christianity in its inner tenets) and seek a New World Order based only on pure control, only using the Pieces of Eden to achieve that goal; they do not try to establish a society similar to what was before. Even then, the Order's disbandment might have originated the Instruments, an enemy faction of the Templars who behave essentially like the Order did in the past. The similarities between the Order and the Templars don't compare to the ones between Hidden Ones and Assassins, they're essentially the same organization, with the same creed, the same practices and rituals, the same insignia, only suffering a name change due to cultural influences. Even within themselves, the Assassins practically consider members of the Hidden Ones to be essentially Assassins themselves. - TiagoFF (talk) 17:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Something that I just remembered, while I did not participate in it, as I said above, I believe most of the users who did comment in Sol's discussion on this matter in 2020 decided that the Ancients and the Templars were to be seen as the same. I don't believe anything has significantly changed since then series-wise, as that period mostly featured Valhalla's expansions unrelated to the Ancients and now Mirage. – Darman (talk) 20:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Then how do we fit the apparently Isu-worshipping Ancients to the initially-monotheistic Templars, while still keeping them separate from the Instruments? They still want world domination, but it seems through different means. At the same time, I believe Alfred's pseudonym of a "Poor Fellow-Soldier of Christ [and of the Temple of Solomon]", the Templars' full name, is intentional. – Darman (talk) 16:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Bumping this topic. Aside from the old community consensus linked above—which it seems is a now reduced to code text?—do any more recent media, or other users, argue in favor/against merging? – Darman (talk) 00:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I propose that it be merged with the main Templars page. While a lot of their activity was in Egypt, they still represented the organization as a whole. Levantine Assassin (talk) 11:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

With how Valhalla alone makes the clearest distinction between these Orders, given hos Alfred founded it after conspiring to destroy it from the inside, the differences are to big to big to ignore as well as the added implication that they have more in common with the Instruments, who's implicated connection to Fulke is yet unknown aside from an codename called Instrument.

Sure we have some old lore connecting history of the Templars to ancient rulers and their empires, and this itself doest justify why they should be merged in itself, taking Heresy into account after Valhalla, we don't know say how signifiant the failed reforms and death of King Arthur and what makes modern Templars still view how him as one of their own in comparison to the success of Alfred as founder of the Templars as an actual organization with its own distinct beliefs and practice from the Ancients. Even then, the Abstergo Fles speaks of there being several previous organisations and the Ancients itself having beliefs that in retrospect also would brand self proclaim Templars as both a fifth column and traitors as per Templars/Uprising who went to great lengts to not associate Templars with Isu worship at all and this leaves far more questions than answers currently.

What we do have are only points of reference about ancient Templar history, not an outline from where we can say here are every movement of their history that defined them by their own beliefs and practice in their own word. Then we have the current connections and acknowledgements by modern Templars combined with a distinct Ancient order with beliefs branded as heresy by both Alfred and the modern Templars, yet has history in common with them as seen in the for example Encyclopaedia. Merging the pages of both Ancients and Templars directly, as of now would be more work than worth it given clear differences as organisations and to base it on shared history alone without a clearer outline would be a hasty judgement. Can't compare this to Hidden Ones and Assassins whom have so much in common as beliefs and practice that they basically are the same. ACsenior (talk) 08:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

My point: The transformation of the Order of the Ancients into the Templars as we now them today has always been a subject of considerable debate among our ranks. We have operated with the assumption that the Templars themselves hold some or complete knowledge of this evolution, but at present, no concrete historical evidence has ever made it into our hands.

What little data we do have is mostly a matter of public record, with some exceptions. It is commonly understood that the origin of the Knights Templar dates back to 1119 CE, and this indeed was the appearance of the public face of the Templars. However, our records attest to the existence of Templar agents at least two centuries before this date.

In one badly damaged document, an "Assassin Contract" from Normandy in the mid-11th century, the author makes free use of the term Templar. An earlier letter—this time from a Hidden One in the region of modern-day Dorset, circa 978 CE—makes mention of a "Templar spy" within the ranks of the Brotherhood. From this we can safely assume that the Templar Order, as an entity distinct from the Order of the Ancients, existed at some point in the mid-10th century.

The only thing Shaun knows, as an historian on this is that is still a debate and that we can not know anything, only suspect, as there's no actual historical evidence except for the now known work of Alfred The Great. But that still is only a part of the evolution and not all of it, and all of it is only something Shaun suspects the Templars to have all the records over, hence even Alan Rikkin commenting on King Arthur is interesting in this context. So we know as of now only Templars know the whole change but what is. interesting is that Shaun can evidently claim the Templars distinct from the Ancients, a distinction made by Alfred himself and a distinction made by modern Templars fighting the Instruments whom are more far more similar in their beliefs to the Ancients. A similarity so close that comparing it to the transition from Hidden Ones to Assassins is actually a good caparison this time. Still, we can as of yet not know anything, only suspect, so suspect to be wrong or having overlooked something. ACsenior (talk) 07:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Serpent's design

The serpent of the symbol is identical in its curves and general design to one depiction of Apep in the ancient Egyptian paintings. Curious detail, for certain, but enough to mention in the Trivia? Sadelyrate (siniath) 09:16, July 15, 2018 (UTC)

Basing the design of the Order's symbol on Apep would make sense, considering how Aya/Amunet and Bayek can be called champions of Apep's opposite, Ma'at; they use her symbol, a feather, in all of their kills. Sadelyrate (siniath) 09:38, July 15, 2018 (UTC)

Zoroastrianism?

Given the article on the Magi, as well as the emblem of the OotA during the Peloponnesian War, I wonder how much the Order is actually based on Zoroastrianism. 'Cause there's starting to be too many shared details. :D Sadelyrate (siniath) 15:10, December 8, 2018 (UTC)

Have you read Wikipedia’s article on them. It says Herodotos claimed the Magi were Zoroastrian priests who were behind the assassination of Cambyses II and all the shenanigans that followed after. Which is great for my new theory that Cambyses was a Sage which is why OoTA killed him. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 15:41, December 8, 2018 (UTC)

Roman Empire

Think the page could do with some more information on the Order during the founding/time of the Roman Empire - see the French version of the page. —unsigned comment by Jonjoshelvey (talk · contr)

Apart from like 1 paragraph about Caligula, everything else was already in this page, though? - Soranin (talk) 01:48, 28 October 2021 (UTC)