Talk:Sage

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Reincarnations of Aita

If Sages are reincarnations of Aita doesn't that mean there can only be one incarnation at any given time period? How can Thom Kavanaugh (1652 - 1700s) and John Bartholomew Roberts (17 May 1682 – 10 February 1722) coexist? Bartlmay (talk) 15:33, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

How can they not be? They have the memories and personality of Aita in addition to their own imprinted in their being. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 15:36, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think 'reincarnation' is an iffy term for what the Sages are, but there's nothing that says reincarnations have to be consecutive, rather than concurrent. Indeed, given that two of the three known Sages lived at the same time, it's actually more likely that another Sage is alive in 2013, than not. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 12:06, November 19, 2013 (UTC)

This article is riddled with assumptions. The Grand Llama (talk) 23:44, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

Did the assassins and templars of the time (late 17th/early 18th century) know that sages were incarnations of the precursor civilization member Aita? Kenway clearly had no idea what was going on with roberts in the observatory. Also did the people of abstergo entertainment know what was up with John in terms of him being Aita? Gr1m r4p3r (talk) 14:34, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Kenway wasn't an Assassin or Templar at the time. But to answer your question, no. No, they did not know they were reincarnations of Aita; only that they possessed knowledge of the location of the Observatory, and the means to access it. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 14:39, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Roberts clearly knew he was a reincarnation - vide his dying words. --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 17:06, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

I think Jasca was talking about the late 17th/early 18th century Templars there, Kain. I don't think they knew of the Sages' true origins, but it's been a while since I completed Black Flag, so my memory might be hazy. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 17:14, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

What about the people of the modern times at abstergo entertainment and Shaun and Rebecca? Did they know what was going on with John right at the end? Gr1m r4p3r (talk) 23:34, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

Obviously not. --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 23:40, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

Addition to category of First Civilization?

Considering the intrinsic link between the Sages and the First Civilization, especially in how many follow the ideals of the Instruments of the First Will, even if not intentionally (see also, Bartholomew Roberts and François-Thomas Germain), it seems like a big enough link to put them in the category for it at the bottom. I can easily be wrong. I just thought I'd put it out there as an option.GZilla311 (talk) 22:41, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Clay Kaczmarek ?

Is Clay also a Sage ? Or is one of his ancestors maybe a sage ? Cause in Unitys ending we saw how Germain saw those sign, some of them are equal to them Clay saw an "wrote" on the wall at abstergo. What do you think ? GrandTheftAndi (talk) 00:09, November 22, 2014 (UTC)

No, Clay is not a Sage. Why would Clay be a Sage? There's nothing indicating that. Desmond's not a Sage either, and he saw those symbols too, in the Colosseum Vault. Clay relived the lives of a whole lot of people. Through his own genetic memory, he witnessed those symbols, similarly to how "we" do. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 00:13, November 22, 2014 (UTC)

something on sages

This mentions david johns but also someone form the fith century, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tli_GKcP76o.--FossilLord 05:50, December 4, 2014 (UTC)

Pendant

The portrait on 'his' pendant (Roberts and John) could be Juno Hutchy01 (talk) 21:40, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

That's why it's noted in the Trivia sections of both Roberts' and John's articles. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 21:59, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Roberts, I doubt, since it was already on Howell Davis' corpse. --Kainzorus Prime ⚜ ^{Walkie-talkie} 22:33, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

How many Sages can there be at once?

Can Sages be in the same year but in different countries or? – Awesomekid120 (talk) 15:51, February 5, 2015 (UTC)Awesomekid120

Yes, they can. Sages Thomas Kavanagh, Jr.'s and Bartholomew Roberts's lifetimes overlapped and they both lived in the same region, though they didn't meet, as far as we know. As for how many Sages can be alive at the same time, who knows? At least two, but probably more. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 15:55, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, was really confused about that one – Awesomekid120 (talk) 15:58, February 5, 2015 (UTC)Awesomekid120

speculation

Is it possible that Adha of Assassin's Creed: Altaïr's Chronicles is a sage? —unsigned comment by Spanish assassin (talk · contr)

No - for one, all know Sages have been male. And secondly, she's already the "Chalice". Crook ^{The Constantine District} 10:36, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

Syndicate says there's a possibility for females to be Sages, but she's lacking the signature heterochromia. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 10:47, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

Mercenary Chalkon the Sage

I find in the mercenary list an individual who seems to have heterochromia and his bio said that he tried to conquer the world. Maybe a sage? I don't know this mercenary his randomized or present for all players.Francesco75 (talk) 08:00, April 2, 2019 (UTC)

Possibly, but it would be speculative to include him on this article. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:12, April 2, 2019 (UTC)

Article's Chronology

The chronological order of the facts in the history section is wrong. Osteoderrms (talk) 04:57, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

Reincarnation in intro

Can someone think of a better word for this? It’s a bit misleading as the mechanics behind sagehood are genetic rather than "soul" transfer. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 21:04, April 17, 2020 (UTC)

Use of the term in Valhalla

Does the term Sage actually get used in Valhalla to describe Eivor and co? Or is this just unsourced fanon? if yes to the former this article needs a lot of updating. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 15:32, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know, Sage is only ever used to refer to Aita's incarnations, not any of the other Isu. Unless this can be sourced this should be removed. — Zero-ELEC (talk) 06:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

One of the letter's in Aelfred's study seems to suggest that the OotA thought of Eivor and the others as Sages. They view them as Isu reborn. V i l k a T h e W o l f (talk) 06:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Also during the final vision in Jotunheim, Juno states that she will use the same method that the one she helped Odin to steal, to resurrect her husband... Maxattac (talk) 07:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

The letter actually seems to imply they view them differently with ones that repeat being Sages (Aita) and ones that don't being unnamed (Aesir). And Juno's method is clearly different in some manner given that the Aesir was a one time thing. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 04:25, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello everyone! Hope you're doing okay. I'd like for us to continue this discussion regarding the Sages and Isu "Reincarnations" we see in Valhalla. Right now, the Sage article include Aita's and the Norse Isu's reincarnations, but in reality they don't fall under the same category. It has been reported by several members of our community, and some helpers from others, that having all these under the "Sage" page is inconsistent and they are indeed correct. Furthermore, the game does provide proof that confirms that not all reincarnations should fall under the category of sages: The nature of the mead and the different methods (and apparently different technology used) it went under Odin's and Juno's supervision, and the document written by Charlemagne's scholar. These support the idea that the "Sage" label should only go to those "reincarnations" that continue spawning for larger periods of time and should not include the Aesir reincarnations. Having this in mind, it's important for us that the wiki reflects this info in our related articles.

Now, here're some recollected suggestions:

1. To divide this into three pages: Isu reincarnations (explaining this reincarnation stuff in general), Sages (explaining the sage stuff, leave it as it was before including the Aesir reincarnations), and Reborn (Title suggested by IMHOZen1, this is how Fulke and Hildiran refers to these Norse Isu reincarnations. Here we'd explain those reincarnations that happen only once in a lifetime, never again to be seen again once they die).
2. Explain everything in the same page (titled "Isu reincarnations), and divided into two sections: Sages and Reborns.
3. Establish a "Mead" page explaining the 7th method of salvation and there explain the reincarnation stuff, serving as a disambig page. And we'd call them "Aesir reincarnations" rather than Reborns. (Suggested by Sima)
4. Let them remain in the Sage page but create a new section called "Similar cases" and detail how they differ from the definition of Sage explicitly given in Valhalla. (Suggested by Lacrossedaemon)
5. I don't really have a fifth suggestion...

If you have more suggestions, please post them here! And as always, sorry for my English. Cristophorus35 (talk) 05:36, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Cristophorus35,
I know I'm not in the wider community Discord talks, but I'm not certain that this a good idea. The Æsir are still born in human bodies like Aita was, even if they use a different method than...whatever it was that he had happen to him, and the page already separates his reincarnations from the Norse Isu ones. Also, we don't know if the Æsir will reincarnate years later just because their first host body dies. Like Aita, their genes are still in human DNA waiting for the right genetic combination to appear to unlock the Isu's memories, and if Aita can inhabit multiple bodies, we cannot discount this can also happen to the Æsir, especially since all but Svala and Basim will have died by the modern day.

Using "Reborn" for the Æsir feels like a speculative fan name when only two characters use it to describe reincarnations with what knowledge they had available. We don't refer to France as Gaul anymore, but that was the contemporary Roman name. Granted, the mead page needs loads of work, but the drink that Odin steals—filtered by Eivor seeing it as the mythical Mead of Poetry (i.e. one lives forever by way of oral/written sagas)—seems to be an unnamed catalyst for an undescribed reaction necessary to use Yggdrasil; that's not enough information to build a page on. – Darman (talk) 14:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Clarifying the distinction between the Sages and 'Sage-like' Aesir on this page seems the sensible choice to me unless the series makes a bigger thing of it post-Elijah. The way I interpreted it was Juno adapts the process further so Aita keeps popping up until reunion where the Aesir attempt was more of a one-time Hail Mary (they're less interesting if they keep resurfacing imo). Redirect the mead serum to the Yggdrasil page maybe? Page for the Seven Methods of Salvation? Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 17:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there'll be any bigger Sage stuff post-Elijah, but that's me. I do think your idea with Juno is something akin to what she did, using the serum to boost her experiments on Aita, but it's still undefined in AC. The page for the Mead of poetry has been made, as it's named in the Discovery Tour and ACV's promo podcast Echoes of History, it just needs lots of work. Specifically, it'll need a Mythology and History sections like other pages on Isu stuff/people remembered in Norse myth. – Darman (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello Darman and Vetinari! Thanks for your feedback regarding this subject. The main reason I want to resume this discussion is because it was indeed being held on Discord. Odeyssus suggested we should move it here and I agreed with her. And here we are. I'd love the idea of having you guys in the ACWiki discord server as well, but I respect your decision if you think it's not necessary.
Well, I'll now reply to your comments.
Despite being two methods made under the same tech (the mead), there's clearly a difference with the results. "Sages" is how Aita's reincarnations (and only Aita's) are called, these keep appearing over time, they have heterochromia, sometimes their faces resemble Aita's, and sometimes they share their infinite love for Juno. Now, the Norse Isu reincarnations are different because, as suggested by Charlemagne's scholar (which is an important source of info IMO and should be, by all means, considered. And also because it falls under that rule in creating stories: "If Maria mentions she has a pistol, the pistol will eventually appear"), they happen to appear only once in a lifetime. It seems Odin didn't like the idea of having multiple "clones" throughout time, so the Aesir could have programmed their reincarnations to happen only once, in a period of time where all of them would be born at the same moment. (This clearly didn't work because their calculations weren't 100% correct), their faces also resemble the Aesir's in most cases. The reason behind this "only in a lifetime" decision can be the goal of these norse isu reincarnations: going back to the Yggdrassil chamber to live happily ever after in a digital world. While nothing is explicitly confirmed, these elements seem to suggest those are the differences between sages and the other reborns. It's incorrect to call them Norse sages since they are not sages to begin with, despite both methods being created thanks to the same tech. The Bell from Conspiracies is not considered an Animus (not even a proto-animus by its author) and yet it does perform the same functions.
I disagree on the idea that calling them reborn is speculative. Of course, we don't call France with its other names but that's a country, I think that falls under other rules. The Heart from Heresy is called Heart because that's how the characters call it in the novel, and iirc, only Simon calls it that. I could understand if the reason for not calling them Reborn is because only side characters employ that term, but other than that, I disagree completely.
About the mead page, I was quite sure the Mead (7th method) and the Mead of Poetry were different elements, that the theft by Odin was part of the things that changed throughout time and humanity thought they were one and the same... But what I really meant by this was asking the community here about their opinion on the idea of reworking them as follows: Mead (the drink) and Mead (Also known as the Mead of Poetry. Here we would explain the 7th method, sages stuff and """reborns""" stuff).
I really think these hints are important and we should clarify them to not misinform the AC community. It's because of these reasons that calling them "Norse sages" is as wrong as calling Ratonhnhaké:ton "Connor Kenway". (Hehehe).
I apologize for any grammatical error my reply might have. I wrote this as the ideas went through my head.
I wait eagerly for your replies. Have a nice day/night.Cristophorus35 (talk) 22:23, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I know I said long ago that I would recuse myself from Valhalla discussions until I myself have caught up with its lore, but I wanted to leave some few notes based on my vague understanding in case they would still be helpful.

• First, I had always interpreted Sage to be a proper noun for the "reincarnations" of Aita. Even back in Black Flag when this phenomenon was first introduced, this was how I interpreted the name, and you guys might want to review how it is used in that game. The fact that it is such a generic word yet capitalized to me indicates this. Obviously, John Standish isn't a sage; he is a Sage. A sage would be Confucius or Zhuang Zhou or something. And it also seemed to me that the terminology was invented by humans long after the Isu for people with the characteristics of the reincarnations of Aita.
• Second, if the "Æsir reincarnations" have never been called Sages in the source material, then I would really think that they should never be referred to or categorized as Sages.
• Third, as I was telling the others on Discord, I would like you guys to be mindful of what reincarnation and rebirth actually mean. In Buddhism, the term that is always used is rebirth, not reincarnation, because it is held that reincarnation by definition must involve the recycling of a non-perishable soul, which the Buddhists argue does not exist. This implies that in Buddhist theory, people are reborn materially although somehow there can be a continuity in memory, and so the term may fit the phenomenon with the Æsir and Aita better. (It gets more complicated though when we delve into the debate over how the soul is defined since in the śramaṇa religions of Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism, the soul by definition involves an immutable identity, in which case it may be said that the Buddhists actually do believe a soul is involved in the cycle of rebirth, but they won't call it that because it is not a personable soul...). My point here is that although you guys will likely argue that the Isu phenomenon does not correspond to śramaṇa theory, I think it would be wrong to say that it would be speculative to use the word reborn over reincarnation. The word reincarnation, as used in the real-world, is by definition a more specific claim than rebirth, which is a broader term, so if using rebirth is speculative, I would think that using reincarnation would be more speculative in the absence of characters using either terms.
• Finally, I don't understand the Gaul vs. France example. That has no relevance.

Whatever term we use for the Æsir should be based on the terminology used in the lore, even if we have at most one or two evidence for that term. They should not be called Sages if they have never been called Sages. Also I personally really dislike Ubisoft using reincarnation for this because it can cause confusion given that there are still many people today who still believe in it or believe in the cycle of rebirth. If they were trying to demystify it in the lore by explaining how an Isu phenomenon was misunderstood and evolved into the śramaṇa concept of reincarnation/rebirth, that would be okay and interesting to me. But it sounds like it is being used for something entirely apart from the śramaṇa faiths which is bound to cause confusion later if they do visit Asian settings and build lore around Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 23:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Hey Cyfy!
I'm not going to go deep into spoilers, just want to say that, I can confirm 100% that the game never, ever, employ the term "Sage" to the Aesir reincarnations. That's why I mentioned the document written by Charlemagne's scholar, he remarks the difference between Sages and the other "reincarnations". Furthermore, another reason I support the suggestion of reworking these articles is because of someone that is hinted as another "reincarnation" but doesn't fall in the category of Sage or Aesir reborn. Cristophorus35 (talk) 00:12, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

I can corroborate that ACV does not explicitly refer to any reborn Æsir as a Sage, but I think it's also open for interpretation. For ease of discussion's sake, the closest Alcuin gets to naming them in his note is this passage:

"Most blasphemous of [the Order of the Ancients'] beliefs is perhaps this: they believe many of these lesser gods still walk the earth or may return one day in resurrected forms. Some they believe are continually reborn. These they call sages. Others seem to appear once only and never again. Whether they believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be such one, I have yet to determine, but their literature is full of references to such beings."

To me, the vagueness comes from the fact he says other gods seem to appear only once, which as I said above does not discount their appearing again centuries later. Likewise, we also do not know if Odin planned for many Æsir rebirths later or just one. I think we may have jumped the gun when ACV released and reasoned that, since Aita was reborn and called a Sage, the Norse Isu must also be filed under there even if reborn through a different means.

Aside from this, I admittedly had not thought about Buddhism, etc. in all this and was indeed using reincarnation and reborn colloquially. Lastly, my Gaul/France analogy was evidently a bad attempt at...parallelism, I think? Just because two folks in Ye Olde Days call This Thing a Widget when we know it now as a Gear does not mean we should still call it that, but if all we have to go off of is Fulke using the just-as-generic word "Reborn" for these people... – Darman (talk) 01:25, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, going by that, Alcuin is drawing a line between Sages and whatever the Aesir are as distinct in name and not just technique, and would appear deliberately worded as such for us, the audience. Means that the Sages are so-called 'reborn's too though I would much prefer the Aesir on the Sage page until Proper Noun'd rather than both on a Reborn page if that was the choice. Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 23:21, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

This is again another word of god thing as Darby has tweeted that the Aesir was specifically a one time thing that we will need to trackdown and archive. Vetinari's preference is also why I suggested adding a similar cases section to this article which would include Odin's group but possibly also Buddha and Reda. If we choose to go with "similar case" without coming up with a unique term for it I am undecided as to whether removing the offending members from the Sages category page or not. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 23:38, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

I personally prefer to separate them into different pages, because having non-sages reincarnations in a sage page is kinda disordered and doesn't really help in reflecting the info. If calling them reborns is out of the picture, despite being canonically used, perhaps we could transform those pages into sections for a new Mead(7th method) page, since both types of "reincarnations" come from the same idea. "Same tech, different method" as mentioned by Shaun when going back to the present after completing the Anomalies. EDIT: Come to think of it, this would only be correct for the Aesir reborns, and perhaps Reda... but what about Buddha and (probably) Jesus? It's unknown if the former have something to do with the 7th method. Yeah, I think a single page with each kind of reincarnation as subsection might do just fine. What do you think?Cristophorus35 (talk) 04:50, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I'd say it's too soon for Reda and haven't read any of Dynasty yet but would a page on Reincarnation - which would allow better clarity for real-world religion - with the Aesir on both that and the Sage article somewhere solve it? Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 13:01, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Just popping in to say I don't think a page on reincarnation would hurt, especially as Buddhist culture features prominently in Dynasty, e.g. the śarīra and the obvious statue. You'll want to ask Sol for more info, and maybe check for the go-ahead just in case. I'll add my opinion on the wider issue here later today/early tomorrow when not busy. – Darman (talk) 13:20, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

To my memory, reincarnation has not been mentioned in Dynasty so far. Also, I don't think that would solve the problem Vetinari. My objection right now is that it does not sound like Æsir are actually reincarnated but reborn. Again, rebirth is a broader term and less specific (therefore safer and more neutral) claim than reincarnation. A person who is reincarnated can always be called reborn. A person who is reborn cannot necessarily be called reincarnated. Of course Assassin's Creed does not have to abide by the strict real-world definitions or the terminology used in śramaṇa faith since they build their own lore around mythology, religion, and metaphysics, but we would still need to prove that the series is defining reincarnation differently than in the real-world. If the sources so far describe the Æsir as being reborn but never use the term reincarnation, then we should not be describing them as reincarnations.

In that case, an article on reincarnation is currently not merited since it has also not yet been referenced in Dynasty. However, I think I do remember Darby using the word reincarnation in a tweet? We should also consider using other terms like transmigration, used by some modern Western philosophers, or even the Greek word metempsychosis. I think transmigration is probably as safe to use as rebirth because it is a general word, but metempsychosis like reincarnation might be a specific term which requires sources to back up.

@Cris, when you said "If calling them reborns is out of the picture despite being canonically used", I would like to remind everyone that per sourcing policy, if the term reborn is canonically used, then that term is not out of the picture. Also Jesus was said to have been resurrected, which is different from both reincarnation and rebirth, but I don't know if Assassin's Creed lore has suggested that Jesus is a similar case to Sages, Æsir, and the Buddha and that that's what you were referring to?

Back to Darman, yes, the reason why the Gaul vs. France analogy doesn't work is because factors influencing the evolution of sociopolitical names are myriad and complex and the issues that would be involved have no similarity to disputes in metaphysical terminology. Even though the modern French are descended from both, the Gauls and Franks weren't the same people; one were Celtic, the other Germanic. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 21:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh wait, I don't mean to derail us from the more important issue of whether or not Æsir are Sages. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 21:34, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

About the reborns, yeah, that's how in-game characters refer to the Aesir reborns. The thing is that I didn't want to enforce that name and wanted to know the opinion of the rest of the wikieditors, trying to reach a consensus. I shamefully admit that I completely forgot about sourcing policy so thank you kindly for the reminder (I should have thought about that). And about Jesus, there's nothing confirmed; Valhalla just teased the possibility of Jesus being also one of these reborns. That's why I prefer to have sages and reborns in different pages or devided in sections, that way we prepare ourselves to add more reborns that aren't Sages nor Aesir ones.Cristophorus35 (talk) 02:57, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Just gunna put out there that wikipedia does use a ==Similar cases== section on articles for situations like theses. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 03:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

If Valhalla implies that Jesus could have been one of these reborn Isu, then it does merit a mention. As for the term, my point isn't that we have to enforce reborn over reincarnation yet but just that the fact it is used means that it shouldn't be disallowed. It is quite possible that both terms can be used here.

I think the main thing I haven't been clear about is just that in English, rebirth or transmigration are the generic and default words for this kind of phenomenon. Reincarnation is a more specific (although more common) term that has theological, metaphysical, and spiritual implications. That's why I think the burden of proof is on reincarnation to be also used in addition to the word reborn. I think the confusion is that some editors are treating it as the other way around, with reincarnation being the generic word for this phenomenon. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 05:33, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

When does Valhalla imply Jesus was a not-Sage? Feels like someone would have been all over the guy's article with that nugget and it's not mentioned there. So... page called Rebirth? Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 11:28, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, can anyone provide some evidence for the term reincarnation being used for the Æsir and the Sages? And we still need to decide if they should share a page or not. And you mean "when does Valhalla imply Jesus was a Sage" right? The burden of proof is on showing that he is a Sage in the lore, not that he was not. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 20:32, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I mean one of these Sage-like individuals. As fun as a Sage encountering a Sage would be with Jesus x Wanderer, the lore saying the guy might actually be a redo of a parasitical, malevolent Etruscan god would quite something. Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 21:48, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

So, I haven't been taking part in this discussion because I've literally not had the time to read through all of this, but I noticed the request for some evidence on the use of reincarnation for sages and that I can help with. Quoting from Database: Sages from AC: Syndicate: "Sage is a term used to identify the reincarnation of Aita, a member of the First Civilization, inside of a human being." - Soranin (talk) 23:36, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and the Jesus-might-be-a-sage-thing is from Alcuin's Letter to Charlemagne, quoted here: "Most blasphemous of their beliefs is perhaps this: they believe many of these lesser gods still walk the earth or may return one day in resurrected forms. Some they believe are continually reborn. These they call sages. Others seem to appear once only and never again. Whether they believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be such a one, I have yet to determine, but their literature is full of references to such beings." - Soranin (talk) 23:39, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Ooh okay thank you Sora, that was precisely what I was looking for. I had remembered reincarnation being used for Sages somewhere but was having trouble finding it. I think I am developing a clearer position regarding all of this, but I would like us to hear from Sima first because he was the one who first raised this problem again, and I am not as caught up on the lore. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 23:51, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Using reincarnation as an official term is still iffy to me since Shaun is clearly not using it as such. And I don’t think we have a good term for a separate article. I still maintain that we just do a similar cases section for the Aesir and others on the Sage page itself. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 04:04, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Sorry but I totally disagree, the Wiki should remark the factor that makes Sages and Aesir reincarnations different while preparing the pages for more potential non-sages reborns in the future. A "similar case" section in the Sage article does not suffice this because of the page's title, it can mislead our users. Now, if these reborns are only mentioned in Valhalla and the brand only focuses on Sages, there's no shame in reverting changes. But right now all the info discussed here points out that there are other types of isu reincarnations that doesn't fall into the Sage category and they must be regarded as that, different types. And they should have their own page, just as Sages have. We could create a general category for Isu reincarnations and there include Sages, Aesir reborns, and there put the "Similar cases" mentioning others that aren't Sages nor Aesir.Cristophorus35 (talk) 17:05, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Similar cases is only misleading if you willfully ignore the meaning of the term. It would be misleading if I said the two cases were the same. I’m not; I’m saying they are similar. There’s nothing misleading there. It’s valid archival science. You mention there being no shame in reverting later if we never get more information. That’s backwards. We need to wait for more information before we can give them their article. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 22:51, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the opposite, Valhalla gives plenty of info about this and hints the difference between the two reborn types. Furthermore, we must address Darby's tweet[1] as well. It confirms the fact that it was indeed the Aesir reborns those who were meant to appear only once in a lifetime. And not only that, his tweet also implies that the Sage cycle was possible thanks to alterations made by Juno, meaning the 7th method was originally intended to create only one reborn per Isu. Which is odd to me since the 7th method was apparently created by Juno according to Loki's conversation with Aletheia that Layla can hear during the Animus Anomalies, but that's another story. My vote goes for separating them, each one should have its own page.Cristophorus35 (talk) 06:11, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Alright, reading this was a lot to catch up on so forgive me if I bring something up that has been mentioned before or if I forget something entirely. I think my stance has been somewhat adjusted since before reading all this. The reason I brought all of this up is not only because the reborn Aesir are on the Sage page: the pages for Basim, Eivor, Sigurd etc. all *explicitly refer to them as Sages*. Basim's right there in its introductory line. As pointed out already, Alcuin's text explicitly refers to Sages (albeit with a lower case "s", but issues like that can be quite prevalent in written documents in the games) as those that are reborn continuously, and does not name those that are only reborn once. In addition to Darby explicitly confirming the only reborn once, the very implicit reason Alcuin's document mentions there are those only reborn once is to refer to the newly-introduced reborn Aesir.

I agree strongly with Cristophorus regarding the confusion that outright putting all of the reborn Aesir's information on the Sages page. It is my experience that information is very easily conflated even if it is made clear through written text. We currently know they are not the same, and there is enough information to strongly warrant them having their own page.

I propose the following:

• Create a page called "Reborn Isu" (though with a lower case "r" in reborn) as a conjectural umbrella term. This can describe the unnamed reborn Aesir in more detail in their own section and gallery. It can also give a very short description of the Sages in their own category, while mainly liking to the Sages page through a "Main article:" link. Then a third section can give vague descriptions of possible other cases, like Jesus or the Buddha. While the term "reborn" is used in canon, "reborns" is not. I find that to be a bit of a peculiar word and I never see it used elsewhere - and if one were to Google it, they would just find results for vinyl baby dolls. Hence, I think "reborn Isu" and "reborn Aesir" are more appropriate than "Isu reborns" or "Aesir reborns".
• The Sages page will remain to contain all the detailed information on Aita's reincarnations (as Shaun puts it). It will have a "Similar cases" section as Lacrosse recommended, with a similarly short description of them like the Reborn Isu page would have for the Sages, with a "Main article:" link to the Reborn Isu page.
• The Mead of poetry page currently does not seem to contain any information beyond the mythological. Nothing is described about how it was used for both the rebirth of the Aesir or how it was further developed by Juno to create Sages. I very much think it should.

I'd be willing to make these adjustments myself at the end of the week if others were to agree, or even share further examples of what it would actually look like. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 15:21, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Good catch on "reborn Isu" vs. "Isu reborns". I was late on telling the others this, but the latter isn't actually grammatically correct lol. Sometimes the adjective reborn may be used poetically by placing it after the noun it describes, e.g. "I am Cho Cho reborn! >:)" — a Cho Cho fanboy probably, but I don't think it can be a noun in and of itself. See: the Merriam-Webster Dictionary and the Cambridge Dictionary (Wiktionary alone contains the definition about vinyl dolls which I think is some recently coined usage). I will share my final thoughts later, but I want to see if Lacrosse or maybe anyone else has any rebuttal to Sima's proposal? Otherwise, I am pretty convinced by it. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:21, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm more comfortable with "Rebirth" for the article (which is what the anomalies use) and "Human (rebirth)" scans better to me for an infobox, for example, but the proposal is reasonable if my opinion counts towards anything ;) . Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 19:59, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I'd be fine with "Isu rebirth", but I think just "rebirth" without relating it to the word "Isu" is not quite descriptive enough, especially in the infobox. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 21:21, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Vetinari, is it because you still want the article to explain the belief about rebirth (and reincarnation) in various cultures, like in Buddhism? And of course your opinion will always count for something. :) Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 00:48, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Because if we ever find ourselves having the need for an article about the cycle of rebirth in Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism, I would recommend that it be a separate article under its Sanskrit name saṃsāra unless it is confirmed that the Isu method of being reborn is actually meant to be the inspiration for the Hindu, Jain, and Buddhist belief in the Assassin's Creed universe. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 00:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Just makes sense to me to have a concept article as a catch-all for incidents that can't comfortably be asserted to be those that are a product of the mead/Isu serum and one for the Sages but I appreciate that a page named for the beings is more consistent with others on the wiki. Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 08:14, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

It'd be great if you could share some examples, Sima. By using them as guides, I could apply the changes to the pages.Cristophorus35 (talk) 02:38, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Sages In Valhalla

Where is it confirmed in the game that Regna was a Sage ? If I remember correctly there is only a mention of her having heterochromia in the Nun report on Regna dissection. Is that enough to state that she was a Sage, because Alexander too had heterochromia yet he is not listed as a Sage. Also, I probably missed it but where is it stated or implied in Valhalla that Halfdan was Thor reborn ?Maxattac (talk) 07:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

In Frideswid's autopsy notes, she mentioned Regna's heterochromia and how it was a connection to the precursor gods. She's not 100% confirmed to be Sage but the OotA seem to think she is at least. There is nothing to suggest Alexander the Great was a Sage except his heterochromia. At least with Regna theres accompanying notes regarding the fact. V i l k a T h e W o l f (talk) 14:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Reincarnation

Is it accurate to say that they're reincarnations? Isn't being a sage just a genetic trait, hence why there can be 2 sages alive at a time? MedievalVibes (talk) 13:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

You are correct. The issue is finding the language to accurately describe the process when Ubisoft themselves haven’t even got that far. Most of it is based on deduction rather than explicit information. “Reincarnation” gets the point across to the layperson even if we use the term loosely. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

It could say something like "a sage is someone with a high amount of isu dna" or something like that idk MedievalVibes (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

We do say that as well but being a Sage is more than just that. Kassandra ostensibly had high amount of Isu DNA but isn't a Sage. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 01:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I changed the wording to make it correct, it should make sense now. MedievalVibes (talk) 14:52, 30 May 2023 (UTC)