Talk:Roshan
Activities in England date error[edit source]
Couldn't have been 867, Eivor wasn't even in England then. Was it meant to be 876? VilkaIsBack (talk) 07:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Likely. I bet fingers slipped when typing. Fixed. – Darman (talk) 00:46, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- How do we know she was in England in 876? Did a developper state so?Francesco75 (talk) 08:15, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
Desmond's ancestor?[edit source]
Mwell, this subject has been on topic for some time in our community since Mirage was released so I think it's time to properly address it in Roshan's page, so I summon you all to this talkpage.
To recap, during Roshan's very last scene, she's addressed as "Roshan bint-La'Ahad". One may think that Roshan might be Altaïr's ancestor due to this reference, and thus, Desmond's. But this mention here, and its others instances, doesn't really confirm anything by itself. As pointed out by Lacrossedaemon and Soranin, surnames work differently in Arabic cultures, they aren't necessarily set by a direct family lineage. In light of these, one can't really confirm a link.
It's not until April 24th that we would have an update on this matter. During an AMA session done by the r/assassinscreed subreddit staff in collab. with Ubisoft, Stephane Boudon (Mirage's creative director), shared some insights.
Lacrossedaemon: Arab naming schemes are pretty intricate with “ibn La’Ahad” being use more like a nisbah or laqab rather than a nasab for Altair and his family. Picking the same for Roshan (well ibnah/bint for female) makes fans draw some inferences. Is the implication supposed to be that Altair descends from Roshan? I don’t think we have any hints of her having children from the games or transmedia.
Stephane: Let me put it like that. There is definitely some shared DNA between Roshan and Desmond 🧬.
This can have different interpretations, but let me explain why I'm more inclined to think that Roshan is Desmond's ancestor:
- The references: Iirc, the "daughter of no one" bit is mentioned twice; one during Basim's mission in The Bazaar, and the other during Roshan's last scene. The game seems to be poking the players over this, "Hey, daughter of no one. Remember that? Hey.". And how not to? Who else goes by that in the franchise that has big relevance, if not Altaïr himself? Not to mention the title of Mirage's transmedia "Daughter of No One", focused on Roshan's adventures.
- Connection with older stories: While the focus is no longer on him, his ancestry is still important. The Isu had the entire human history revolving over him, making sure the calculations went uninterrupted to make sure his eventual existence is a success. I think Roshan is quite the opportunity to remind us of that, and to connect the older stories with current ones. Desmond's ancestry is so important that his ancestors had to have some level of interaction with other prominent figures in the ACverse.
- Assuming good faith: I'd like to think this isn't Stephane is not trolling us (XD) and he really mean to reply to this question. Either Roshan is Desmond's ancestor or they both have an ancestor in common, probably Isu. I'm no biologist but I do know the basics, if there are more ways for one to be related to other via DNA that isn't bloodline stuff, you can let me know. (Also, why the vague reply? A simple yes or no would suffice. No wonder some of us are more critical to the story than usual. XD).
This is how I see it, and I'd like to gather more opinions about the matter.Cristophorus35 (talk) 08:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- As I followed up, saying Roshan shares DNA with Desmond is a really vague response that doesn’t give us much. If Roshan had any descendants (big if given zero hints of this in the games or transmedia) it’s been 1200 years. It wouldn’t be far fetched for Desmond, Layla, Aliyah, Joey, and even Cal to all be descended from with possibly none of those lines passing through Altair.
- Additionally “share” is also a loaded word. It could be said I share DNA with my aunt but I’m not descended from her.
- I think the most we can get from this is that Roshan and Desmond are related in some way. If someone can work that into the article without disrupting the flow then good. But we can’t assume anything in regards to Altair for this. The fact that the devs didn’t just answer either yes or no implies to me they have no actual plans either way. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 09:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Lacrosse, because they used the word "share" we cannot assume that Desmond is descended from Roshan. If, say, one of Roshan's sisters were Desmond's anscestor, they would still share DNA, without her being the ancestor. And Altair wasn't even mentioned in the reply. - Soranin (talk) 12:36, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Understood. Then, a point for the Behind the Scenes section should suffice. Do you find this: "“On April 24th, during an AMA session, Stephane Boudon, Mirage's creative director, confirmed that there's shared DNA between Roshan and Desmond. However, this doesn’t necessarily mean Roshan is his direct ancestor. It’s possible they’re related through a common one, which would make them distant relatives instead. So, while there’s a connection, whether Roshan is his ancestor or not, remains a mystery.” good enough?Cristophorus35 (talk) 07:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well on Desmond's article we can put it in the Ancestry section that they are related but possibly not directly citing the AMA and with a footnote explaining the reasoning. This page it might need to be behind the scenes unless someone can figure out how to work it into the intro or do a legacy section. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 07:52, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- I could help with that, my English powers should do the trick. But I'm not sure about putting Roshan in the Desmond page's ancestry section, since we aren't sure, we shouldn't put her there. Doing so is contradictory. I say it 'cause Roshan could be a distant relative, being his grand-grand(*insert many grands here*)-grand-aunty, or being a distant relative by having an ancestor in common.Cristophorus35 (talk) 01:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well on Desmond's article we can put it in the Ancestry section that they are related but possibly not directly citing the AMA and with a footnote explaining the reasoning. This page it might need to be behind the scenes unless someone can figure out how to work it into the intro or do a legacy section. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 07:52, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Understood. Then, a point for the Behind the Scenes section should suffice. Do you find this: "“On April 24th, during an AMA session, Stephane Boudon, Mirage's creative director, confirmed that there's shared DNA between Roshan and Desmond. However, this doesn’t necessarily mean Roshan is his direct ancestor. It’s possible they’re related through a common one, which would make them distant relatives instead. So, while there’s a connection, whether Roshan is his ancestor or not, remains a mystery.” good enough?Cristophorus35 (talk) 07:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Lacrosse, because they used the word "share" we cannot assume that Desmond is descended from Roshan. If, say, one of Roshan's sisters were Desmond's anscestor, they would still share DNA, without her being the ancestor. And Altair wasn't even mentioned in the reply. - Soranin (talk) 12:36, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I just revised the BTS section. In my opinion, it is already sufficient to simply quote Stephene Boudon's exact words "shared DNA" and then say that he didn't elaborate further. That is already factual and non-speculative, and we don't need to expound on what that could mean, unless of course you guys do think there is a greater need to. Coming from an inclusionist wiki writing philosophy, I do believe that it would be better for Roshan's "shared DNA" with Desmond to be mentioned in his article as well, but it should be given minimal weight. I agree with Lacrosse and Sora's analysis that it doesn't necessarily mean Desmond is her direct descendant. Finally, I think the question of Roshan's possible relation with Altaïr in lieu of sharing "Ibn-La'Ahad" in their name is worth addressing in her article, but we should take care to avoid speculatively drawing a link between this and Roshan also having "shared DNA" with Desmond. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 01:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)