Talk:Golden Turtles

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Translation

I would like to open up a discussion on our translation for 金龜袋. Here are the following options:

1. Golden Turtles
2. Golden Turtle Pouch
3. Golden Turtle Bag
4. Golden Tortoise Pouch
5. Golden Tortoise Bag
6. Jinguidai

The first option, "Golden Turtles", is used as an official translation in the character flowchart released as part of the promotional material for Assassin's Creed: Dynasty. This is therefore the most authoritative translation, and by sourcing policy, we technically should be using it. It can be surmised that the translation for 袋 ('bag', 'pouch') was dropped because 'Golden Turtle Bag' would sound awkward for English audiences. There are a few reasons why we may prefer not to use this translation though. In the talk page for "Assassin's Creed: Dynasty", the user 陆山君阿贼 argued that this omission is poor translation because 袋 ('bag', 'pouch') is an essential part of its meaning that cannot be removed.

Me being me, I am actually inclined to agree that I would prefer a more faithful translation to one that sounds less awkward for English audiences. However, sourcing policy must be abided by. It is only the fact that this flowchart is pre-release material, is the only incidence where we see an official translation of 金龜袋 into English, and was released in such low resolution to be smacking of unprofessionalism that I can make excuses not to immediately resign to "Golden Turtles" as the only proper translation to use on our wiki.

Otherwise, I know that 'bag' is the more obvious, immediate translation of 袋, and they are usually 1:1 translations. However, when I think of and the hear 袋 in the context of 金龜袋, my mind instantly thinks more specifically of a pouch due to its size and how it was carried. In English, it sounds odd to me not to distinguish it from larger bags like a backpack or a burlap sack or a grocery, plastic bag. What I'm trying to say is that in English, if the bag is a pouch, we would call it a pouch, not just any old bag, which unqualified, sounds more like something bigger to me. This is why I prefer option #2 to option #3.

As for using tortoise over turtle, I think this would just be unnecessary pickiness. I noticed that the common English translation for 玄武 (Xuanwu) is "Black Tortoise", and if I am not remembering wrong from my previous research, Wu Zetian associated herself with this symbol. I would have thought that using tortoise over turtle would just be a matter of consistency with that, but then tortoise is wordier than turtle, doesn't flow as well, and we might as well not deviate further from the translation used in the flowchart if we can.

陆山君阿贼 proposed in the other talk page that we keep it entirely untranslated. My personal preference has always been not to do this with foreign terms unless there is really far too much meaning that would be lost in translation or if the translated term really can't accurately capture the concept. But a 金 is gold and 龜 is turtle and 袋 is bag or pouch. It is not an abstract concept, and translating it word-for-word won't cause a loss in meaning as to its symbolism. So I don't agree with keeping this term untranslated, but I am definitely open to hearing a case for it.

My vote would be for moving this page to "Golden Turtle Pouch" if there are no objections until the official English translation can be verified beyond this flowchart. I think an argument can be made that it is wrong of us to make exceptions for strict sourcing policy, and we should just use "Golden Turtles"... Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 00:03, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

TBH, I think using Jinguidai might be better, the splinter faction of Yeluohe doesn't have a direct translation after all. V i l k a T h e W o l f (talk) 01:14, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I vote for "Golden Turtles", since that was the one used, tbh. - Soranin (talk) 01:26, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vilka, Yeluohe doesn't have a direct translation because it actually can't be directly translated. It is a romanization of the Mandarin pronunciation of an ancient Turkic word that got phonetically transcribed into Middle Chinese. In other words, it comes to us via Turkic → Middle Chinese → Mandarin → English. The meaning along the way has already been lost (although it is theorized it probably meant something akin to a valiant warrior). This is not at all like 金龜袋 which can be translated word for word as gold, turtle, pouch because each of the characters are basic nouns for unambiguous concepts. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 02:24, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm pretty ambivalent on this but would agree with Vilka on the stipulation that the first section after the intro be Etymology or Significance explaining the historical background. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 02:45, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh that would be a given. The special issue includes precisely that historical background, and it was never a question that we would have to include that critical information out. On a different note, I'm tempted to change my vote to "Golden Turtles" to be honest. So I'm wavering between that and "Golden Turtle Pouch". I am most opposed to jinguidai. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 02:51, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I would say we go for the term that is stated on the official term, and make do with it until we have an official English translation available. XOdeyssusx (talk) 10:08, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, in my opinion, Golden Turtles is definitely the translation to go with. Not only does it have the benefit of not being awkward in English, but it was used in official material, even if it was pre-release. — Zero-ELEC (talk) 18:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)