Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins

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Lugder Duvernay

Do Canadian Assassins come under this branch? Because I wanna know where Lugder Duvernay should go. IlMualim 16:58, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

No, Canadian Assassins would be listed as "Canadian Colonial Assassins" rather than here, but this article is being renamed to either "British Colonial Assassins" or "American Colonial Assassins" depending on which title is more fitting... Supreme Master Assassin^{O Mentoras} 01:15, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Renamed as when Sima or another admin deems it so, since I was unable to when I tried. Slate Vesper (talk) 01:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Aveline?

Shouldn't Aveline de Grandpre be listed here? I would do it myself but I think the article is locked. —unsigned comment by 24.187.189.165 (talk · contr)

No, Aveline would be listed under French Colonial Assassins due to her French ancestry Supreme Master Assassin^{O Mentoras} 01:13, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it's based on location. New Orleans was in French control when Aveline was inducted, so that's why she's there. Slate Vesper (talk) 01:16, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

That immediately popped into my mind once I clicked 'Publish' Supreme Master Assassin^{O Mentoras} 01:26, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

@Supreme's first comment, When I first made this topic, there was no French Colonial Assassins page. Just an American Assassins page. 24.187.189.165 01:31, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Colonial Assassins

This should be moved or renamed to British Colonial Assassin or American Colonial Assassin to avoid confusion to other Colonial Assassin branches. Should also create American branch for Ratonhnhaké:ton and Desmond.

• Colonial Assassins (disambiguation)
  • British Colonial Assassins.
  • French Colonial Assassins.
  • Spanish Colonial Assassins.
  • Other non-Americas Colonial Assassins.

Modern assassin branches‎

• North American branch
  • Provinces/States/Territories
• Northern & Central European Assassins
  • UK branch (British assassins)
• Southern & Western European Assassins
  • French branch, Spanish branch, Italian branch, Turkish branch?
• Eastern European & Transcontinental Assassins
  • Russian branch

Historical (pre-Altaïr)

• Babylonian Assassins => Persian Assassins => Iraq Assassins?/Middle Eastern branch?
• Roman Assassins => Italian Assassins

--Falconeye (talk) 00:54, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, so I'll get on that. Edit: As it appears, it can only be renamed by an administrator, as it's been locked to prevent editing. I'll make sure to notify one however. Slate Vesper (talk) 01:05, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Should it be put to a vote to see what others may think on the matter? Because we have "British Colonial Assassins" and "American Colonial Assassins" Supreme Master Assassin^{O Mentoras} 01:11, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

It's gotta be British Colonial, Supreme, both the French Colonial and Spanish Colonial Brotherhoods also refer to America. ~ GI Auditore ^{Comms Channel} 01:59, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Colonial Assassins in multiplayer?

I noticed in multiplayer, that memories of assassins were also used in addition to templars. Sharpshooter, Robber, Nightstalker, Highlander, and a couple more. Should they also be added to this page? 71.108.32.207 02:08, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Indeed they should, will someone edit this page soon? Mr.DarkBlade (talk) 16:00, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Title of the article

We should make this page called the "English Colonial Assassins" cause it can separate it from the French Colonial Assassins

Grand Master Kenway (talk) 23:48, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

No. Let me clear this up: we are not renaming this article – which is the actual given name for the particular Brotherhood in the Thirteen Colonies, mind you – to a name that we made up ourselves. And a name that is just as inaccurate as the current one, since that would imply that this particular Brotherhood is located across all English colonies – those all over the British Empire. (Which would actually mean the name should be 'British Colonial Assassins', but that is beside the point.) This, quite frankly, is not the case, and prior to all these separate Brotherhoods gathering under one single Mentor sometime in the 20th century, these Brotherhoods functioned per area where communication was possible in, not necessarily per country or colonies. No single Mentor could keep leadership over all British colonies, or all colonies in the Americas.

The Assassins in Louisiana are a separate Brotherhood. Due to that, and also due to Agaté and Achilles both being Mentors at the same time; additionally, Connor does not answer to Agaté and Aveline does not answer to Achilles. However, Agaté in no way is the Mentor of all French colonies. Agaté's particular Brotherhood did not stretch beyond Louisiana, and since it seems to only comprise Agaté, Aveline and Gérald, I'm not sure if it can even be labelled a full-fledged Brotherhood. In any case, after Agaté's death, this Brotherhood seems to have become defunct.

What applies to the Colonial Brotherhood of Assassins, also applies to the 'Colonial Rite of Templars'. There was no organized Rite in the Thirteen Colonies prior to Haytham's arrival, and he became their first Grand Master. But there were other Templars and Grand Masters in other colonies, and this shows that Haytham was not the leader of all Templars in all colonies either. Curious though that Madeleine is not a Grand Master in her own right but only a Master Templar - perhaps she did answer to Haytham?

I think we can all conclude though that the whole 'Brotherhoods' and 'Rites' thing is incredibly unclear and that the writers themselves may not have it laid out for them. Also just noticed that Achilles' database entry says that Connor seems to have been the first Native American Assassin yet the Assassins started recruiting indigenous Americans since their arrival in the Americas. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 00:56, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to necro and will be leaving the same message at the bottom of this page, but I wanted to reply directly here because I think it might be from this particular conversation that led to the move function for this article being disabled. The official name of this branch has been confirmed as "Colonial Brotherhood" by The Essential Guide, and it should be moved there. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:10, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

Founder

John de la Tour wasn't the founder of the Colonial Brotherhood. He was just a French-Canadian Assassin working for the Assassin Council. The Brotherhood was founded after John died in 1745... Can we still consider him a member of this group? Lorenzo.ladogana (talk) 10:00, December 8, 2014 (UTC)

Apperance and Skills

Should we add the apperance (clothes and/or robes) and the skills and wepons that the colonial assassins used during this period? I would do it myself but i am not sure if it is important enough to be included, plus you guys already do a great job modifying pages i would't want to put anything unessessary up.Hassan-i Sabbā (talk) 09:18, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

United States Assassin Brotherhood

Hey, Guys, sorry to bring back the topic of title changing, but I've been thinking, technically, after July 4th 1776 or the end of the American Revolution, couldn't you say the the Colonial Assassin Brotherhood became the United States Assassin Brotherhood? Thanks for the time.

It's never been referred to as such, so I personally don't see the use of that title; without a canon reference, it is essentially speculation. Also, please sign your posts. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 21:16, March 30, 2015 (UTC)

Well Colonial ties with Colonialism, which was the British establishing in the new world. After 1781, it is safe to sure that it is known as the American Brotherhood. I mean if Shay calls the Templars "The Colonial...the American Rite", which was in 1776 no less, it is safe to say that Connor would refer to the newly born Brotherhood, "American"

I mean think about it, why call it Colonial, when it is no longer the colonies of the British? It defies logic going against this reasoning.  Mr.DarkBlade (talk) 05:49, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

That's different. Shay explicitly states the Templar Rite to be American. Nobody on the Assassin side refers to their own Brotherhood branch as such in the games or related media at that time. So unless it appears named as such somewhere, it's not getting changed. --Kainzorus Prime ⚜ ^{Walkie-talkie} 05:55, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

PIERRE BELLEC WAS A MEMBER. HE RECIEVED TRAINING FROM THEM FOR 9 YEARS AND LEFT FOR FRANCE JUST BEFORE THE 1763 ATTACK ON THE DAVENPORT HOMESTEAD

Should those 15 unidentified assassins Shay kills throughout New York, North Atlantic, River Vally be mentioned 

Colonial Brotherhood

I was wondering how official the title of Colonial Assassins was. In AC Rogue, this branch is called the Colonial Brotherhood in the war letters.Hugues de Payens (talk) 07:06, January 3, 2016 (UTC)

It's official that they're called the "Colonial Brotherhood" according to The Essential Guide. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:10, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

Colonial Assassins + Brotherhood of New Orleans = American Assassins?

In Last Descendant, we learn that the Mentor of the American Brotherhood is maybe the grand son of Aveline de Grandpré. This left a question, wih the Louisiana purchase in 1803, did the NO brotherhood and the colonial Assassins joined their forces and ressources. It's only a supposition, but could we make a page link to the american Brotherhood with both Colonial and N-O Brotherhoods.

Francesco75 (talk) 07:26, January 19, 2017 (UTC)

Sounds a bit speculative if you ask me, Francesco75. Unless Last Descendants implies the New Orleans Brotherhood and the Colonial Assassins actually joined up, I don't think we should be making those kinds of assumptions. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 19:35, January 19, 2017 (UTC)

Renaming disabled

I wish to move this page to its official name of "Colonial Brotherhood of Assassins" as given in The Essential Guide, but it seems that the function has been disabled. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:10, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

American Brotherhood of Assassins

I propose we create a separate article for the American Brotherhood of Assassins detailing all the events from after the United States was officially founded, because obviously there no longer was a "Colonial Brotherhood of Assassins" at that point anymore, and it is surely not active in the modern era. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 08:05, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

While I wouldn't personally object, the problem we run into is whether we have any official confirmation that the Colonial and American Brotherhoods are sufficiently seperate from one another. The Roman and Italian Brotherhoods are different in the sense that the Roman Brotherhood eventually ceased to exist and the Italian Brotherhood was founded by the Polo brothers centuries later. There doesn't seem to be any kind of moment in which the Colonial Brotherhood stopped existing and the American Brotherhood began. I suppose we could suggest that the Colonial Brotherhood became the American Brotherhood either in 1776, when the American colonies declared themselves free and independent states, or in 1783, when the conflict formally ended. If we're gonna create a seperate article then I suggest using 1783 as the cut-off point. Does the Essential Guide, or any other guide for that matter, make a distinction? The Wikia Editor (talk) 10:49, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the Wikia Editor that the Colonial and American Brotherhoods seem to have always been a singular, contiguous entity with a name change, especially Connor continued to lead it after the American Revolution. However, I have definitely been thinking of moving Colonial Brotherhood to American Brotherhood because that seems more proper to me, but the key issue here is that the name American Brotherhood is not attested in any source I know. It does not appear at all in The Essential Guide.

When the book discusses modern Assassins, it tends to avoid referring to branches called "Brotherhoods" (i.e. guilds) altogether, and so for a while, I was getting the impression that the modern Assassins considered this classification obsolete, until I read the text that explicitly described Galina as hailing from the Russian Brotherhood and Gavin Banks meeting with the Osaka Brotherhood. Earlier, the book describes the division into "Brotherhoods" (aka guilds) is an older structure that has been superseded by cells, but it's clear that the idea of regional branches still at times called "Brotherhoods" persists. In any case, the name "American Brotherhood" curiously enough does not appear at all in the entire book, even when describing modern American Assassins. Whenever the branch is explicitly mentioned, it is always in regards to events of the American Revolution or prior, and so it's only called the "Colonial Brotherhood". The closest thing to the mention of the American Brotherhood is that Kody Adams is described as a member of the "Californian Assassin cell" though I'm not sure if that is a name so much as a description (i.e. an Assassin cell in California). Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 17:27, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that they're two separate entities in the most literal sense, but they're distinct enough from a writing point of view to warrant separation, in my opinion. Moving to American Brotherhood of Assassins is fine, since as it is now it is pretty nonsensical and confusing. I'm quite sure the Last Descendants novel makes mention of an American Brotherhood, doesn't it? Even if it doesn't, I still propose a move, since it quite frankly exists. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 16:44, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

I think you actually do have a point there, Sima Yi. Standard wiki policy is that articles, even if covering the same subject, can be divided if they become too long and unwieldy. As well, doing so could allow us to better clarify that the name "American Brotherhood" so far is conjectural, as we can place that tag at the top of the American Brotherhood article.

I think my main counter to this would be that it's not entirely clear that the modern-day branch of Assassins in the United States constitutes one, discrete branch. That may seem like the obvious case, but there can always be an exception. For all we know, the Assassins in the United States were divided into multiple branches or even that Assassins in California worked more closely with Assassins in British Columbia. Setting off a distinct article might give the wrong impression that we know for sure how the modern Assassins in the United States are organized when thus far, we don't. It doesn't help that modern Assassins are split into many cells rather than constituting exact, unified guilds due to the Great Purge. In light of this, I might even argue that a lot of the modern-day events should've been excluded from this article and should fall under the Assassins article in general, but since so much work has already been put into it by the Wikia Editor, I wouldn't ask that it be all retracted.

Similarly, I'm also afraid it might give the wrong impression that Connor expressly reorganized or renamed the branch after the American Revolution when that may entirely not have been the case, and in the minds of the American Assassins at the time, there was never such a reorganization in any way or a cut-off time.

So far I'm pretty undecided about this. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 20:47, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

Splitting the article: Californian Brotherhood

This is a resumption of Master Sima Yi's proposal above. I'm not entirely sure if we should split Colonial Brotherhood from American Brotherhood just yet or rename Colonial Brotherhood to American Brotherhood because I'm still not entirely sure if the latter name has been verified in AC sources as obvious as the name should be.

However, I would tentatively propose that we split off an article titled "Californian Brotherhood of Assassins" which encompasses Charlotte de la Cruz's team. The Essential Guide uses the term "Californian Assassin" at least once in reference to members of her team, and the book has a habit of using the format of "[...] Assassin" interchangeably with "[...] Brotherhood". However, the name "Californian Brotherhood" is not explicitly used ever. Aside from "Californian Assassin", Galina Voronina is also expressly stated to have been transferred to a new cell in California, but of course this as descriptive, and I'm not sure if it would imply an autonomous branch. It does parallel the other usage of "Californian Assassin" to describe members of her team though. Also, I vaguely remember encountering "Californian Assassin" being used to describe their team in other sources, making it more consistent, but I can't remember exactly where...

I'm tentative about this because it's not 100% confirmed, but this is just going off by Sima Yi's suggestion. If he thinks that this article to too large and should be split (and there is a Wikipedian practice to split off articles for no other reason than a single one has become too large and for better organization), and if Sima Yi doesn't mind that a name is conjecture, then I propose for the sake of better organization, we should split off Californian Brotherhood in regards to Charlotte's team.

Aside from this, I want to point out that I think it might be presumptive to treat Desmond's team as part of the American Brotherhood. Shaun, after all, is British anyways. I always interpreted that if their cell, if organized under a branch, would be treated as one directly under Assassin HQ. But really, I doubt their team was necessarily classified under any one branch. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 00:06, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

While I do agree that the article is getting pretty large as is, I'm not entirely sure that creating a "Californian Brotherhood" is the right solution. Conjectural name aside, we know that local cells are typically named after the city they reside in (i.e. the Florentine cell in Italy, the Whistler cell in Canada, etc.), with mobile cells such as Desmond's and Charlotte's being obvious exceptions. Galina's transfer doesn't really say much of anything about the cell, her own Brotherhood had been wiped out and she doesn't appear to be involved in the Georgian Brotherhood's attempt to re-establish it. Perhaps we can name it "Charlotte de la Cruz's team" or something along those lines, we can leave a short description and a link at the Colonial Brotherhood article, while writing the main bulk of the team's activities in this hypothetical "Charlotte de la Cruz's team" article. One could argue that the "Californian cell" basically stopped really existing following the end of Trial by Fire, when the team fled to Mexico and obviously never returned to being a local cell in California. The Wikia Editor (talk) 10:43, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Mm I'm a little confused about your train of thought because sources are consistently describing them as Californian Assassins and their cell as Californian which I think is the best lead we have. As for the cell no longer existing after it went to Mexico, I think the reality is that they were still the same cell or team. I think it makes more sense to think of geographical branches as where the cell operated from or originated from not where they happened to be at the moment even if they haven't returned to California in a while. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 15:47, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Allow me to elaborate. While it's true that the Californian cell is still the same team, they're no longer local and their membership has expanded to include numerous members from different countries, in fact, with the possible exception of My'shell, Charlotte is the only remaining member of the team who is actually from California. I'm also not sure whether we should take the term "Californian Assassin" to mean that they are part of a "Californian Brotherhood". I'm pretty sure that Ezio has been referred to as a "Florentine Assassin" on at least one occasion. Another thing that concerns me is the fact that, if we create an article for Charlotte's team, I kind of feel like we should make articles for the other cells as well, in order to stay consistent. The fact that Desmond's team doesn't really have any kind of name is especially problematic (unless you count that one time when William referred to them as "our Roman sales team" in an email to Adriano). The Wikia Editor (talk) 23:54, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

It's official. We're splitting off an article for Desmond's team titled "Roman sales team". Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 22:20, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Double-checking, the incidence under Kody Adam's entry in The Essential Guide is actually "Californian Assassin cell", not sure if that changes anything. I had previously thought it was describing him not the cell. Aside from the usage in Kody, Galina, and Charlotte's entries though, I remember encountering the term in other sources too, but I just don't remember where. I do want to point out that the whole point of a name being conjectural is that the question of whether we should take "Californian Assassin" to mean "Californian Brotherhood" is less consequential. I would argue that the basis for a lot of our other Brotherhood articles is still more shaky, for example the Canadian Brotherhood one just because there was a cell in Whistler. We agreed to use the "Brotherhood" names for consistency and because the Osaka and Russian Brotherhoods example confirm that the cells are still regarded as "Brotherhoods".

Also, I actually do think that Desmond's team really should have its own article. I think it's presumptuous to have it fall under American Brotherhood. This is similar to Master Sima Yi's proposal, only that I'm not too sure about splitting off Colonial vs. American Brotherhood exactly, but at least to split off Desmond's team. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 22:29, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not at all objecting to Desmond's and Charlotte's teams having their own articles, I just wish to organize it in such a way that we're consistent. I suppose we could make exceptions for their teams on the basis that they're both international cells that are no longer (or were never) limited to any specific city or state. Local cells can still be listed within their specific Brotherhood pages. The Wikia Editor (talk) 01:16, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

For the point about it not being Californian anymore because it's no longer based in California, as I said earlier, I think it makes more sense to think of the geographical designation as being defined by where they originated in or operated from. From there, they take their name, and even if the name is no longer accurate, if it's the best lead on the group's name or was their name at some point, then it is fine as a conjectural title for their article. Aside from that, it's entirely possible for a group to maintain a name that's no longer geographically accurate. Take the Byzantine Empire, for example, which for its entire existence was still officially the Roman Empire because even if it's clear that they've become hella Hellenized and have long been sundered from Rome, they maintained their claim to their origins and their official name. Over at Wookieepedia, it is understood that conjectural names, while ideally accurate, can technically be pretty much anything. For example Justice Jedi for this dude who we only know of as a guy who screamed "Justice" before dying... Nevermind! Someone renamed it without a discussion, but for many, many years, I remember admins affirmed it was fine as a conjectural name. In any case, you don't think "Californian Assassin cell" changes anything? That format isn't exactly correct if they meant it as purely descriptive. It would literally be the closest thing we have to a canonical name for the cell even if they're no longer in California. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 23:27, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think the Byzantine Empire is a good example, given that the name is being applied retroactively. As for the cell, while it's true that we can technically name it whatever we like. I still think that, if we are aiming for the utmost accurate name, calling them "Charlotte de la Cruz's Assassin cell" is still more accurate than "Californian Assassin cell", given that they basically stopped being a local cell following Xavier's death. Not to mention the fact that it would fit the naming scheme of Desmond's team, assuming that we would call them "Desmond Miles' Assassin cell". The Wikia Editor (talk) 01:52, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

I think you should reread my example with the Byzantine Empire because the point is their usage of the name "Roman Empire" not the retroactive name "Byzantine Empire" (which would make absolutely no sense to my point). I kind of fear you're not addressing my counter-argument or Sima Yi's in fact, that being a cell originating in California doesn't mean they're limited to operating only in California or that names, being what they are, can reflect origins and aren't always necessarily changed just because they've moved. In any case, "California Assassin cell" is most accurate aside from my counter-argument above, by mere virtue that it's sourced (to the point it might not even be conjectural). Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 00:07, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

My apologies, you're right, I misread what you had written. I suppose it's true that names don't necessarily always have to change. That and I suppose that "Californian Assassin cell" (or "California Asssassin cell") is as close as we have to an official name for the team. That still kinda leaves us with what to name Desmond's cell. I suppose the closest have to a name would be "Roman Assassin cell" (based on William's quip about them being the "Roman sales team"). The name is almost purely conjectural, but it's the closest we have aside from possibly "Lucy Stillman's Assassin cell" (since she was their leader) or "Desmond Miles' Assassin cell". The Wikia Editor (talk) 10:59, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

I think the real issue here is that being a Californian Assassin doesn't mean they're not part of a grander Brotherhood that reaches beyond California. I'm not in favor of this as it really convolutes this hierarchy anymore. I'd personally rather see articles for different cells created rather than labelling this a separate Brotherhood, but considering how often they change it's hard to really pinpoint them. And would the Assassins from the beginning of the AC film be part of this Californian Brotherhood as well? I'll stand by my earlier viewpoint from previous discussions. All in all I have to say I'm not a huge fan of this cell-Brotherhood thing. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 15:53, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I've always been quite dubious about equating cells with Brotherhoods, but I think the Wikia Editor argued before that from the example of the Osaka and Russian cells being confirmed as the Osaka Brotherhood and Russian Brotherhood respectively, this confirms cells can be thought of as Brotherhoods? Anyways, we can argue about the conjectural name later, but the first matter I'm curious about is if you want the article to be split in the first place given its size? Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 16:08, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

I'll restate I'd rather see it being split up into Colonial Brotherhood and American Brotherhood. Just about every other Brotherhood page's name is conjectural, I don't see any conflict here. As for size, skimming over the article I am quite sure a lot of it can be cut or summarized. We don't need every conversation between people to be listed. Only things pertaining to the Brotherhood itself need to go here, not every individual member's action. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 16:42, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Sima Yi, do you think the American Rite should be split from the Colonial Rite as well? Personally, I still fear that this would give the wrong impression of that they are no longer one contiguous entity. If anything, a name change makes more sense. Shay at the end of Rogue outright revises the name of Colonial Rite to American Rite. Whatever our action here, it should be consistent with our action with the Colonial Rite article. If the name of "American Brotherhood" is confirmed (and not just assumed as obvious as it is), I would support a page move instead. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 22:42, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

Splitting article (Part II)

So I think we should prioritize splitting off Desmond's cell. I tried to take a look at this article, and it really seems like it's dealing with two entirely different subjects. His cell definitely warrants a split, if not just because it's kind of burgeonng the article.

I think after we split off Desmond's cell, we can see if Sima Yi still thinks American Brotherhood should still be split and if he thinks the article is better. I think that the main contrast between the modern Brotherhood and the colonial one is just the operations of Desmond's cells anyways, so it should be close to his suggestion.

I'm just not too sure of the name of the new article. Personally I'm not a huge fan of any titles that are descriptive and relies on possessives. On the other hand, while "Roman Assassin cell" sounds better to me, I want to just take a second thought about if it's the best option. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 14:21, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

While I think this is the better option, I still will not be too satisfied with an article called Colonial Brotherhood of Assassins which details events that took place long after the founding of the United States. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 14:40, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

What about just renaming it to American Brotherhood of Assassins? I have already adjusted that in the intro because it made writing awkward otherwise. There's certainly a lot of examples in Wikipedia, Wookieepedia, and I'm sure on this wiki where an article can go by its current name, but we just mention its former name as well. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 15:33, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

Revisit?

This is an ongoing discussion.

Per the discussion on Talk:Persian Brotherhood of Assassins does this need to be reevaluated? Lacrossedeamon (talk) 05:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I revisited some part (putting the references, all the colonial contracts and the late 20th century). But i think if it is not better to divide this in two articles: 1) The Colonial Brotherhood from its founding to the late Revolution, 2) The American Brotherhood from the 19th century to the Purge. I don't know if we can count the cells which operated in America as the American Brotherhood. In the American Brotherhood we could make a subsection and a main article link to the Colonial Brotherhood.

The question is also about the Louisiana Brotherhood, when do we considered it is a part of the American Brotherhood. In the AC movie it is implied they were autonomous during the Civil War but maybe it is just a local "juridiction" and it is a part of the American Brothethood. For me, the best solution would be to use the beginning of the article to create a Colonial Brotherhood article, we kept the Louisiana Brotherhood, and in the American Brother hood we make a section which resume both the story of the Colonial and Louisiana.

The present day after the Purge it is questionable if we considered if cells are part of a Brotherhood. William Team operated more in Italy than really in America. Do we considered the cell is American because most of its members are American?Francesco75 (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Hey Francesco, when does the movie imply that the Louisiana Brotherhood was still autonomous during the Civil War? I don't remember that at all.

I personally always thought of the American Brotherhood as a simple name change from the Colonial Brotherhood and so for our purposes the two can be the same page. However, I think it is also valid to treat them separately like Thirteen Colonies and United States of America. The question falls more on our preferred way of organizing the content. One key way to figure out the best approach may be to check for sources confirming that Connor was leader during the transition from the Colonial Brotherhood to the American Brotherhood because then there could be content overlap. It's even possible the Colonial Brotherhood was re-christened the American Brotherhood during the revolution for all we know since Assassin's Creed III never gives us the name of the branch. Unfortunately, I cannot find the name American Brotherhood in either editions of The Essential Guide. Do we recall the source for this name?

Regarding cells, although Galina's cell is called the Russian Brotherhood and the Onmoraki-Gumi the Osaka Brotherhood in The Essential Guide, you are right that Desmond Miles' cell was more mobile and did not correspond neatly to any branch. The other two cells can be thought of as remnants of the purge, but Desmond's cell in my opinion was formed specifically for the purpose of rescuing Desmond. I have long argued that his cell needs its own page at least and so does Charlotte de la Cruz's. We don't have to include them under the American Brotherhood.

You also brought up the Canadian Brotherhood in the "Persian Brotherhood" talk page. Per our consensus, I think it can discuss historical Assassin and Templar activities within the territory that would constitute Canada. Bear in mind also that both Connor and Shay actively had agents conduct missions in Canada as well.

Finally, we often think of the "Thirteen Colonies" as distinct from Canada and the Caribbean, but they were all formally known together as British America. We might wish to bear in mind that the concept of the "Thirteen Colonies" is a retrospective one in that it referred to the 13 out of several dozens more that chose to rebel and then became the United States. Of course, there were cultural differences, and the colonies in Canada had been annexed from the French, but at the time of the revolution, these were all formally part of one territory to the British government. Still, I believe the War Letters in Rogue imply the Colonial Brotherhood founded by Achilles did not cover New France (Canada), at least not initially. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 19:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

For Louisiana, in the movie, there are pictures of Assassins from the Civil War (you can see them in the gallery of the Louisiana Brotherhood), but it is unknown if they are autonomous or not.

For Desmond's cell, I already created years ago William Miles' team. William was the leader and the goal was to infiltrate the Animus Project. Saving Desmond and preventing the disaster was an evolution.

For the jurisdiction of Achilles Brotherhood, they had a Gang headquarters in Halifax (British Canada) but they also planned Assassin missions that Shay prevented in New France. Maybe the Colonial Brotherhood is meant as the British/French Colonial Brotherhood as the borders were moving. Achilles' Brotherhood had influence from Canada to Virginia (Two Bends bureau) while Connor's was further south (Georgia) and even the Carribean Sea with the privateer's missions.

But the question is how we proceed. Ok for the American Brotherhood page to exist, we write all the activities of its members and activities on the American sole, so Miguel Ramón Carlo de Lugo, Thomas Stoddard and Jennifer Querry included. We also write the Louisiana actions. But the question is do we create a colonial Brotherhood page if we keep a Louisiana page? For me, the two Brotherhood could be considered as the predecessor of the American Brotherhood, so it is a bit strange to have a specific page for Louisiana and not the Colonial. For the limit of the Colonial Brotherhood, it will be 1783 (end of the Revolutionary War) or 1803 (Louisiana Purchase).Francesco75 (talk) 21:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The page for the Louisiana Brotherhood should definitely be kept because The Essential Guide presents it as very distinct from the Colonial Brotherhood. After all, the Colonial Brotherhood was founded by Achilles, who was trained by the West Indies Brotherhood, while the Louisiana Brotherhood was founded by Agaté, who came from the Saint-Domingue Brotherhood. But you have a point that perhaps we can think of the Louisiana Brotherhood as merging into (or subsumed into) the American Brotherhood, where we can organize the pages as how we will for the Chinese Brotherhood (with Hidden Ones of the Great Desert and Hidden Ones of the Great Tang as separate pages alongside it). I think we need to hear more input from others.

Regarding the image from the film though, it tells us that American Assassins operated in Louisiana by the time of the Civil War, from which we can infer that the Louisiana Brotherhood had merged into the American Brotherhood by then, but it doesn't seem to tell us anything explicit otherwise.

Achilles' letters mention that John de la Tour, an Assassin working under the orders of the French Assassin Council, had been building a network from Acadia. So it seems that at the time of Achilles' arrival, Assassin operations in New France were being conducted by the French Brotherhood, who may also have intended to spawn a separate branch. But Achilles is the "first Colonial Assassin". I don't know if the French Brotherhood were still involved in New France by the time of the Seven Years' War, but it is plausible that Achilles' Colonial Brotherhood took over all Assassin operations in both British America and New France and that likewise it spanned all of British America (Canada and the British West Indies included) under Connor. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 21:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok. For Agaté are we sure he created the Louisiana Brotherhood and not just arrived and became the Mentor? (my head cannon is that Coyote Man killed the former Louisiana Mentor and Agaté arrived). I think the title of Achilles' letter refered to John as the First Colonial Assassin, he repeated this in AC3 (the first Assassin in the Colonies but they were other before him). Also Achilles said that John attempting to build a network, so we don't know if it was operational. Also in the Canadian Brotherhood, we must add Margaux as she go in New France.Francesco75 (talk) 22:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Per the Essential Guide: "Agaté (c.1722-1777) The founder and Mentor of the Louisiana Brotherhoood, [...]" - Soranin (talk) 03:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the source, Liberation database never said if he founded it. And I just made a reflection, that technically Gerald Blanc is the de facto leader of the Louisiana Brotherhood in the late 1770s as the Aveline DLC implied that Aveline didn't work directly for the Assassins (te database entry and Connor's letter).Francesco75 (talk) 05:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd keep them separate, tbh. While these were closer, in the same soon-to-be nation by that time, they had different jurisdictions, different Mentors, not to mention their respective origins are also different. One started with John de la Tour under the French Council's orders and the other probably has its roots emerging thanks to the West Indies Brotherhood.
EDIT: Come to think of it... was it ever confirmed if Aveline joined Connor's group after the events of their respective games? In the Black Flag Aveline DLC, Connor contacts her but not as if she was a member of his group, his letter was not an order but a request for help. But her grandson does become of the American Brotherhood in later years. Would this mean Aveline eventually joined Connor's group with her allies? Or did she establish her own branch? Or that's still unknown?Cristophorus35 (talk) 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Cris, Francesco is asking if the American Brotherhood should be split into two articles: Colonial Brotherhood and American Brotherhood. I'm a bit confused with your answer, and I'm not sure if you understood. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 06:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC)