Talk:Advisor of the Templar Order

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Delete proposal

I do not think this page or its category warrant creation. "Advisor" is anyone who gives recommendations on future actions, I do not think it is a specific rank so much as a general and interchangeable position like "aide". As well, it is based almost entirely on Revolutionary-era French Templars, just like the Lieutenants page which I also feel questionable about. If both "positions" are one-offs for the Rite as well as something that no other Rite has ever had, as opposed to previously-established ranks like Master Templar, I do not see a need for either page. Meanwhile, Ellen Kaye's inclusion here is peculiar. The page lede says "Advisor is [a] subordinate rank", yet she apparently counts as one just for suggesting that Alan Rikkin take a different course of action, even though she outranks him and her "suggestion" would be more like an unspoken order. – Darman (talk) 02:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. This feels descriptive rather than prescriptive. God I hope I used that phrase right, otherwise I'm gunna feel really foolish. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Disagreed. Firstly, it is an existing rank we've known about since Brotherhood within the whole Templar Order. To suggest otherwise despite there being mostly known history within the Parisian Rite is, as per the sources there, just wrong, and if lacking history on issues are cause for deletion then there's a lot of bloat in the Wiki and I don't think such a clean up is a current objective. Taking the Rites page as an example, we can pretty much remove all the individual pages (Borgia towers and other examples) on how Templar exercise their control because we can, and according to consensus here and now, should do so in that page alone. However I think adding all this info within the Parisian Rite page would make it bloated and no individual Rite is merged with a rank page at all currently.

To add a second thing, Templar ranks have a specific function and that's why I consistently work, when I'm actually here, on structure sections more than history sections to actually explain the function of say the rank of Lieutenants and Advisors. Advisors being lacking for info in the current state is simply a fault of my own expecting others that write history better to do so and therefore I come in afterwards to detail the function of the rank by cross referencing its history.

Council of Elders discussion is one where their position as a board of directors for Abstergo and therefore its CEO (like Rikkin) always goes unmentioned and therefore the "superiority" of it as a rank confuses the Wiki, and coincidently, it's also a rank within the Inner Sanctum with an advisory role lacking much history alongside Guardians and the General of the Cross. So I guess the most efficient thing here is to delete all three given lacking history, being isolated within the Inner Sanctum and we can fit all their info in the Inner Sanctum page instead of maintaining these until it get expanded in lore like the Advisors have more of and for the matter Lieutenants too.

Lastly, this Wiki have and Sol has acknowledged it I in a talk page discussion with me that Templar pages have been neglected long and therefor I've said I focus on to pick up on the issue, to already start deleting would simply prove the point further and omit what is currently known of these ranks despite the opinions on them expressed here. ACsenior (talk) 05:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

This page just seems to be taking any broad advisory position within the Templars as a formal rank of "Advisor". Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 12:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

For the same reason we do so with Master Templars, the Master Templars in the Inner Sanctum as the council of the entire Templar Order does not serve the same function as Master Templars within individual Rites under a Grand Master, would you not agree?ACsenior (talk) 12:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I move for deletion, having perused most of the appearances listed on the page at this time (I have not gone back to Blade of Shao Jun). Its appearance in Brotherhood is limited to the name of one of the grades from the Templar Scoring System, indicating that it is a rank during the modern day, and is supposedly beneath "Seneschal" and above "Commander". No other information can be gleaned from this source, moving on. Going through the text files for Unity, we can find "advisor" in a two places, though one is referring to Mirabeau as having been paid by Louis XVI for his advice. The other is at the start, during the Helix menu bit, where the subtitles read "In this episode of Fallen Heroes, experience Jacques De Molay's final tragic hours through the eyes of one of his closest friends and advisors." Considering the subtitles themselves do not capitalize advisor, though it does this during the same memory for "Grand Master", I do not think this is a person with the rank Advisor, just a friend who advises de Molay. The word "advisor" does not appear at all in the Unity novelisation, nor in the movie's novelisation.

TL;DR: Though I believe this is an actual rank, I don't believe the other appearances listed here, and from which this page is pretty much entirely sourced from, are about that rank. - Soranin (talk) 15:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Well I have been going thought the Unity novel and it not only uses "advisor" several times, it also has the explicit use of the words a "Templar Council". therefore, the Council info regarding the De Molay memory has to be corrected according to this and the memory itself capitalise Council while the guard speaks of it having sessions and can make absolute decisions. As for it still existing in modern day, I would assume so as it's by the fact-checking of novel Unity and De Molay memory is not just a rank, it appears the Parisian Rite is the only Rite with a Templar Council. Also, I am looking for a quote in the novel I remember about a character saying Advisors are meant to guide Grand Masters to following Templar principles, basically the same definition as the Council of Elders as Advisors for the Inner Sanctum. The Essential Guide is the source for the Council of Elders as being Advisors.ACsenior (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Having double checked, you are correct that it is mentioned in Unity's novelization (though it uses "adviser" rather than "advisor"). However, I remain with the same opinion that these do not refer to a rank, but to those who advise. Almost all mentions are accompannied with the qualifier of the person they advise, rather than the Templar Order ("my father's advisers", "your advisers", "my advisers", and so on). All of the people described as de la Serre's advisers are named as "Knights of the Order" (12 APRIL 1778 vi.), which is different rank. Nowhere in the novel "advisers" is capitalized, unlike Grand Master and, as mentioned, "Knights of the Order". - Soranin (talk) 16:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

On the assumption it is not, the function of a "Templar Council" is actually a capitalised both in the Unity memory mention and the novelisation, so using that assumption it can be rewritten to be accounted for as a "Templar Council" of Elders/Parisian Rite and it would made the inclusion of the Council of Elders less peculiar. And of course the multiplayer capitalises it, just as the "Brotherhood" systems from other games add a bunch of additional ranks never developed beyond the addition of it. There's also the argument to have if the modern Templars themselves designed that System linked around their own ranks or if its just a coincidence that the top two are the most common ranks known.ACsenior (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

[sigh] Please tell me, where in my proposal did I say that other Templar-related pages should also be deleted on the basis of lacking in-universe history? We are discussing Lieutenants and Advisors only. As Soranin says above, Advisor is never rendered as a proper noun throughout the series (and thank you for looking through the Multiplayer, I had no clue how to navigate that), nor is Lieutenant presented that way in the Unity novel, and so both "positions" are more general terms than vacant slots in a hierarchy. Looking at your and Sol's talk pages, the only instance I see of you two discussing it is from Jan 2021 on his third Archive, where you list these presumed ranks amongst real ones, and all he says is he's "excited to see more of your work on Templar pages", which does not confirm them as applicable elsewhere. With no luck there, I tried your main page talk and user talk contributions, and unless I missed it, this topic has not been discussed between Jan 2021 and now, nor have other users agreed on or rejected it unless it was on Discord or Fandom's Community chat, neither of which I really participate in. – Darman (talk) 16:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Just the implications for using the history of something as an argument as cause and standard for deletion, I responded accordingly on the premise set.ACsenior (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Exhibits of Templar power like the Borgia towers/messengers are indeed once-and-done, never appearing after the Ezio games, but they were a gameplay feature in Brotherhood and were restricted to one era and one group, the Italian Templars in the Renaissance. The Council of Elders is from the film and its novel alone, but they establish they exist in the present. The matter at hand is whether the use of a few general nouns in a game and its novel with old French Templars should be proper nouns that apply to the entire Order. – Darman (talk) 17:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

And speaking of things existing is the existence of a "Templar Council", capitalised in both the novel and the De Molay memory. Regardless of the proper noun use of its individual advisors, within these two councils in two separate eras and spoken of in the context of an Templar Rite rather than being a part of the governance of the entire Templar Order like the Council of Elders, whom still are described as being advisors. To say there is no advisory functions within the Templar Order on these grounds alone would be wrong. And if the multiplayer system is one set up by modern Templars, then one could very much argue that they simply set their own ranks within that system, as one would assume the Templars knew their own ranks. ACsenior (talk) 17:59, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

There is an argument to make a page for "Templar Council" like we have for Assassin Council, but I do not think this page in its current form is warranted given the lack of solid sourcing. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 00:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Then I am for the deletion, only on the condition a "Templar Council" page instead. ACsenior (talk) 01:09, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

If it would streamline the editing process you could rename this page and them rework the content to be more group focused rather than rank. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 01:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I will just get started right away then. ACsenior (talk) 01:35, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it's best to hear from the others who are participating in this discussion before moving the page. - Soranin (talk) 02:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I`ll still prepare for a move seeing as I'm already rewriting. And the consensus was to delate already prior to the suggested move, so unless that changes there are currently only two ways this ends. A new page or deletion. ACsenior (talk) 02:47, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

My bad for jumping the gun with the suggestion. Do you have any specific input on this Jhonnies? Darman will probably chime in later and maybe Vetinari. I'll nudge Sol tomorrow was well. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 02:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Not at all, as far as I'm aware of debate practices, doing changes is among what's allowed as long as the debate is open. ACsenior (talk) 02:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Frankly, I am also skeptical about the a "Templar Council" page as well. It is mentioned in ACU prologue as "the Council's message was absolute", so clearly it is something...but that's all we know. Not its members, when it was founded, not even its duties. It could maybe be the Council of Elders, as that is the only Templar council we know of, but that is both retroactive and supposition. It might instead be unrelated to them and is an untraceable reference to a French judicial group during the persecution, like saying "the jury/court gave a restraining order", we don't know. As well, no one in ACSenior's current sandbox state is confirmed to be part of a proper noun-ed council, just a general council of people. – Darman (talk) 04:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. ACsenior (talk) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are ranks and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar position, not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. ACsenior (talk) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.
I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so.
About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.
About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag. According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was referring to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.
Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.
I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.Cristophorus35 (talk) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [Lieutenant of the Templar Order] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – Darman (talk) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)