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Enough content?[edit source]
Is there actually enough new content that differs from the canon stuff to require a full article rather than just annotating it in Behind the scenes? Lacrossedeamon (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah I am so happy to see The Wikia Editor back, but I think there should've been a discussion before making a separate article for the same character on the basis of non-canonical events about them. This is very unprecedented. I propose that this page be deleted. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 22:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say unprecedented since we have Desmond Miles (non-canon), William Miles (non-canon), Clay Kaczmarek (non-canon), and Lucy Stillman (non-canon). But maybe there should be a discussion for merging those into their main articles in the behind the scenes section as well. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 22:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with keeping this, even with making more seperate articles covering noncanon. But I agree it needs more content. Isn't Desert Threat 100% original noncanon. VilkaIsBack (talk) 22:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks for correcting me on that Lacrosse. It was a silly mistake. But then I stand with your original inquiry about whether there is enough content (or whether the content is different enough) to warrant Shao Jun having another article. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 01:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I can't say whether there is enough distinct content, since I haven't read Ming Storm in quite a while and The Desert Threat at all, but I will say that the article should probably be renamed to "Shao Jun (non-canon)" both to bring it under the standard set by the French comics and to make the intent clearer. - Soranin (talk) 02:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- going off that, say a Shao Jun story gets featured in Visionaries and we wanna make an article about that Shao Jun. What then? VilkaIsBack (talk) 02:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I can't say whether there is enough distinct content, since I haven't read Ming Storm in quite a while and The Desert Threat at all, but I will say that the article should probably be renamed to "Shao Jun (non-canon)" both to bring it under the standard set by the French comics and to make the intent clearer. - Soranin (talk) 02:05, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks for correcting me on that Lacrosse. It was a silly mistake. But then I stand with your original inquiry about whether there is enough content (or whether the content is different enough) to warrant Shao Jun having another article. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 01:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with keeping this, even with making more seperate articles covering noncanon. But I agree it needs more content. Isn't Desert Threat 100% original noncanon. VilkaIsBack (talk) 22:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say unprecedented since we have Desmond Miles (non-canon), William Miles (non-canon), Clay Kaczmarek (non-canon), and Lucy Stillman (non-canon). But maybe there should be a discussion for merging those into their main articles in the behind the scenes section as well. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 22:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
It's been a while since I read the novel but I think it deserves it's own section as it deviates sometimes significantly from the source material (AccesTheAnimusArticle) and it got two sequels down the line that are completely original story's focusing on Shao Jun. Another question if the article stays and users decide to put a personality segment in there, could that potentially be confusing for readers if there are multiple non-canonical versions of said character in one article or should we just ignore the personality segment? FalconBrowser) 08:25, 20-05-2024 (UTC)
- Hey everyone, it's been a while. I'll admit that the article's creation was a bit of a spur-of-the-moment thing after discussing it with FalconBrowser. I would argue that a trilogy of three novels, the latter two being completely original stories to boot, might warrant a separate page, as it would likely contain way too much information to simply be put in the trivia section of the main article. I initially planned to name it "Shao Jun (non-canon)" in accordance with our existing naming convention, but wasn't sure on whether or not Visionaries would similarly warrant into its own page in the future, although from what I've read so far, it seems unlikely. I'd be fine with changing the page to "Shao Jun (non-canon)" and expand it in the future, assuming that we're going to keep it around that is. I'll communicate more in the future about such controversial page creations prior to making them, rest assured. The Wikia Editor (talk) 14:29, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- If I may add my hat in here, from what I recall of having read Ming Storm, it does loosely overlap with Chronicles: China info. I'd initially thought we could add its details as a small non-canon section. However, with Desert Threat's release later, I realized it wouldn't be doable, even if it expands on Shao Jun's adventures in Mongolia post-Chronicles, a time period not (yet?) covered in canon media. There's also the Chinese podcast adaptation to consider, which I can only guess will have "supplementary" info to Ming Storm while we wait for the series' last book to hopefully release soon. I also move for a non-canon page like we have for Desmond, etc. – Darman (talk) 15:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I was really the one who was too hasty there Wikia Editor, and I also appreciate hearing your thought process. I am mostly convinced now that this page can stand, but there is one thing left to consider which may still tip me against it. I've seen it reminded to other users before that The Ming Storm is non-canon because it conflicts with details in Chronicles: China but so does Blade of Shao Jun, which we have now come to decide mostly take precedence over Chronicles: China. Not having read The Ming Storm myself, I would have thought its deviant details can be relegated to the BTS section of Shao Jun's article, but you bring up its sequel being totally original stories. And yet still, if Desert Threat is an original story which does not conflict with any other media about Shao Jun's life post-Chronicles, would it necessarily be non-canon then? If The Ming Storm is non-canon because of discrepancies with Chronicles, this is just a common issue with different adaptations of a story and as we have seen with Blade of Shao Jun, is not the end-all-be-all to the canonical status of the work.
- If I may add my hat in here, from what I recall of having read Ming Storm, it does loosely overlap with Chronicles: China info. I'd initially thought we could add its details as a small non-canon section. However, with Desert Threat's release later, I realized it wouldn't be doable, even if it expands on Shao Jun's adventures in Mongolia post-Chronicles, a time period not (yet?) covered in canon media. There's also the Chinese podcast adaptation to consider, which I can only guess will have "supplementary" info to Ming Storm while we wait for the series' last book to hopefully release soon. I also move for a non-canon page like we have for Desmond, etc. – Darman (talk) 15:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- If we argue that The Desert Threat is necessarily non-canon as long as The Ming Storm has been confirmed to be non-canon, then I would also like to bring up the case of Assassin's Creed: Identity. The second chapter of its story conflicts the entire timeline of the main games (and history), with the Battle of Forlì set after the Liberation of Rome from Cesare Borgia. And yet our wiki still has taken a position of compartmentalizing Identity's story such that chapter 1 is "dubiously canon" while chapter 2 is "definitively non-canon". I still find that position very awkward and believe we should treat Identity as wholly non-canon. But if we maintain our position with Identity, then there's no reason why The Desert Threat has to be treated as non-canon on the basis of The Ming Storm being non-canon, if The Desert Threat has not been declared non-canon by Ubisoft. If we compartmentalize the canonicity of Identity, a single work, then why can we not compartmentalize between two books of the same series? Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 16:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Funny, I had always seen Blade as giving extra info for Chronicles—for example, Wei Bin has a necklace that gets caught on a post, allowing Shao Jun the opening to kill him—with any discrepancies like Wang Yangming's death being superseded by canon events except where there is no issue (Yangming's manner of death differs but Blade has his funeral in a Buddhist temple). I had also thought that, since Ming Storm was non-canon, then the designation applied to its entire series. I haven't read Desert Threat yet, so I don't know whether it contradicts anything, but if it doesn't, then you make a good point and I change my mind to say we could use it to continue Shao Jun's biography until something official overrides it. – Darman (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I do agree with Sol Pacificus that, although The Ming Storm is non-canon, the sequels being original stories means that they could conceivably be more ambiguous in terms of canonicity. I'd be fine with us placing information from The Desert Threat and onwards in the main article with an "Ambiguous Canon" template if it can be made to work. The Wikia Editor (talk) 22:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Funny, I had always seen Blade as giving extra info for Chronicles—for example, Wei Bin has a necklace that gets caught on a post, allowing Shao Jun the opening to kill him—with any discrepancies like Wang Yangming's death being superseded by canon events except where there is no issue (Yangming's manner of death differs but Blade has his funeral in a Buddhist temple). I had also thought that, since Ming Storm was non-canon, then the designation applied to its entire series. I haven't read Desert Threat yet, so I don't know whether it contradicts anything, but if it doesn't, then you make a good point and I change my mind to say we could use it to continue Shao Jun's biography until something official overrides it. – Darman (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- If we argue that The Desert Threat is necessarily non-canon as long as The Ming Storm has been confirmed to be non-canon, then I would also like to bring up the case of Assassin's Creed: Identity. The second chapter of its story conflicts the entire timeline of the main games (and history), with the Battle of Forlì set after the Liberation of Rome from Cesare Borgia. And yet our wiki still has taken a position of compartmentalizing Identity's story such that chapter 1 is "dubiously canon" while chapter 2 is "definitively non-canon". I still find that position very awkward and believe we should treat Identity as wholly non-canon. But if we maintain our position with Identity, then there's no reason why The Desert Threat has to be treated as non-canon on the basis of The Ming Storm being non-canon, if The Desert Threat has not been declared non-canon by Ubisoft. If we compartmentalize the canonicity of Identity, a single work, then why can we not compartmentalize between two books of the same series? Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 16:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
The entire trilogy is said to be non-canon, but for some reason this reference got deleted from the page at some point. Quoting from Aymar Azaizia for Aconyte Books (English publisher), now available through WebArchive: "We are really proud to be able to bring this original trilogy to English readers worldwide through Aconyte. Although the content is not set in the continuity of the main storyline, you will find a great authentic Assassin's Creed story. Enjoy the ride!" - Soranin (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I always disliked how that's worded. Even this one. He doesn't just say "yes it's noncanon"
VilkaIsBack (talk) 21:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Michael Smith (He/Him) (@TheLordReylus) on Twitter "@AymarMtl I was exploring the new site for transmedia on #AssassinsCreed and saw that The Ming Storm is described as a sequel, but previous news releases stated it was non-canon. Which is accurate, or are both?" (screenshot) Aymar Azaïzia (@AymarMtl) on Twitter "@TheLordReylus I haven't got a chance to look at all the blurb and text, we just recently saw the design I will look into it, but regarding Ming storm it's both! It took inspiration from the official story and then expand it. :)" (screenshot)- Yeah technically the first comment could be interpreted to just mean the story isn't being told via a mainline game. I think Rebellion also used some phrasing like that in their blurbs on it. Also that new story hub on their site is already pretty defunct or at least reworked to practical uselessness. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 22:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
So if Aymar established early on via Aconyte that the whole series is original work as opposed to just some of it, while we forgot the reference in the time since then, is that enough grounds to have a non-canon character page? – Darman (talk) 00:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Even saying that "original work using existing characters" just sounds like its expanding Shao Jun's story and nothing about that makes it sound non-canon. Visionaries i totally get being non-canon for sure, but I've always on the fence about The Ming Storm. Even if it does contradict some things in Chronicles: China surely we can state the differences in "Behind the scenes" then add all of Desert Threat to her page...after all we control the canon not Ubisoft lmao.VilkaIsBack (talk) 08:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- If we would, hypothetically speaking of course, put the Desert Threat portion inside the official canon page (and put the differences between canon in behind the scenes) we should make perhaps a clear distinction between the canon and non-canon parts or else we would confuse the readers. This will also bring up other questions like what do we do with the desmond-non canon page? do we assimilate him and the other non-canon pages into the existing ones as well? If so I would prefer it to be a seperate section beneath the existing canon to avoid confussion. FalconBrowser FalconBrowser 19:05, 21 May (UTC)
- We have a way of highlighting that a certain section of the body describes ambiguously canonical events. As for the non-canon iterations of the original Assassin's Creed characters, we do not have to merge them back into their respective canon pages. If we were to do so though, they would just be covered in the BTS section. I don't think Aymar's two answers are too ambiguous about The Ming Storm being non-canon although the fact he feels the need to avoid saying it directly makes him sound non-committal. My concern now is a consistent policy between The Ming Storm + The Desert Threat and Identity chapters 1+2. If we continue to treat Identity chapter 1 as ambiguously canon despite chapter 2 being obviously non-canon, then I would like to treat The Desert Threat ambiguously canon as well. Personally, despite Aymar's answer, I would be fine also treating The Ming Storm ambiguously canon if it were to help streamline things on our end. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 09:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- If we would, hypothetically speaking of course, put the Desert Threat portion inside the official canon page (and put the differences between canon in behind the scenes) we should make perhaps a clear distinction between the canon and non-canon parts or else we would confuse the readers. This will also bring up other questions like what do we do with the desmond-non canon page? do we assimilate him and the other non-canon pages into the existing ones as well? If so I would prefer it to be a seperate section beneath the existing canon to avoid confussion. FalconBrowser FalconBrowser 19:05, 21 May (UTC)
- Even saying that "original work using existing characters" just sounds like its expanding Shao Jun's story and nothing about that makes it sound non-canon. Visionaries i totally get being non-canon for sure, but I've always on the fence about The Ming Storm. Even if it does contradict some things in Chronicles: China surely we can state the differences in "Behind the scenes" then add all of Desert Threat to her page...after all we control the canon not Ubisoft lmao.VilkaIsBack (talk) 08:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- If we did merge these back into the canon articles the non canon stuff would most likely go under behind the scenes in its own subsection. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 21:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think what I'm saying is being missed. The Ming Storm's non-canonness is very vague. The French graphic novels were the whole modern day non canon, past sorta canon. Since the Ming Storm just basically adapts Chronicles China, the differences of that put in BtS (even BoSJ had some differences) and then we add Desert Threat info to her page under idk "Adventures in Mongolia" or something. Make it AmbigCanon if necessary. VilkaIsBack (talk) 21:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- In my personal opinion, the "vagueness" regarding the canonicity is being overstated. The use of "not set in the continuity of the main storyline" to me, having come from comics, is unambiguous. If it's not in the main continuity, it is not canon to that, pure and simple. If we were talking about DC Comics, this would be an elseworlds imprint, to borrow their terminology. I would much rather have this page stay up than put this info in the main article. - Soranin (talk) 14:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think what I'm saying is being missed. The Ming Storm's non-canonness is very vague. The French graphic novels were the whole modern day non canon, past sorta canon. Since the Ming Storm just basically adapts Chronicles China, the differences of that put in BtS (even BoSJ had some differences) and then we add Desert Threat info to her page under idk "Adventures in Mongolia" or something. Make it AmbigCanon if necessary. VilkaIsBack (talk) 21:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- If we did merge these back into the canon articles the non canon stuff would most likely go under behind the scenes in its own subsection. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 21:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Okay I think there are more decisive opinions in support of this page remaining as a separate article. I would like to echo Sora's above suggestion to move this to "Shao Jun (non-canon)" though. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 09:38, 16 June 2024 (UTC)