Talk:Protectors of Persia

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Name

Given that Artabanus doesn't adopt the name "Darius" until after his exile (by which point the group had broken apart), I believe this page should be moved to Artabanus' group. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 15:28, March 9, 2019 (UTC)

Supporting this. Even though he's more commonly known by the name Darius, he still founded the group while still being Artabanus. XOdeyssusx (talk) 14:10, March 20, 2019 (UTC)

Co-sign this support: it makes sense, this is Artabanus' group. Of course, I'd honestly rather Darius be under the name Artabanus in general, but yeah. — Zero-ELEC (talk) 15:48, March 20, 2019 (UTC)

Here, here. I support this as well. Cristophorus35 (talk) 22:42, March 20, 2019 (UTC)

Since I've not seen any comments opposed to the move, I'm going to action it now. If objections do arise, they can be left here. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 13:51, March 22, 2019 (UTC)

Page move

Going off of the discussion at Fuladh's group, can we move this to a more descriptive name instead of just someone's "group"? I recommend either "Artabanus' assassins" or "Artabanus' group of assassins". I understand that there is a concern about calling them Assassins before the founding of the Hidden Ones, as well as calling them "proto-Assassins" since we are being very restrictive about that term, but it would be just as correct to call them assassins, uncapitalized, as it would be to call Fuladh's group mercenaries. We shouldn't have to avoid using the general noun assassins just because we don't want some Assassin predecessors to be mistaken as Assassins. It also has the side-effect of being an interesting call forward. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 01:47, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I had suggested "freedom fighters", but I support your first name idea. Either way, the use of the plural noun makes it shorter than "group of X". We'll have to fix the many redirects to both "Artabanus' group" and "Darius' group" from before, though. – Darman (talk) 02:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

How about "Artabanus' new creed of killers" as per how Artaxerxes mentions them? Hehe.Cristophorus35 (talk) 03:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, that ones way too long. I'd be fine with "Artabanus' assassins" though if the term "assassin" didnt event exist in the 5th century BCE, maybe "agents"? VilkaIsBack (talk) 05:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, if you're talking about the English word assassin, agent also didn't exist as a word in 5th century BCE either. They don't have to. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 06:47, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I support "Artabanus' assassins". – Soranin (talk) 11:46, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

What about "freedom fighters", or "slayers"? I'm not really convinced in using "assassins". Yeah, the A is not capitalized so we are not talking about the Brotherhood. But yet I can't help to feel unconvinced. Especially for the fact that the word Assassin really didn't even existed by those times, right? Cristophorus35 (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Cris, the argument that assassin as a word didn't exist at the time doesn't really make sense. Sure, assassin as a word in the English language is etymologically derived from the Assassins within the universe and without, but other words we know of like agent, freedom fighter, slayer, etc. also weren't developed until later. No word in the English language existed at that time in the 5th century BCE. We're just using modern English to describe things and events in ancient times. In fact, freedom fighter is probably the most modern term and is the most tied contemporary political discourse. Slayer is an awkward word to use in this context (usually slayer refers to killing monsters although maybe you can call Dante a slayer of demons ;) *wink wink*). Assassin as a general noun in the English language is the most usual word for a killer of political targets. We shouldn't be thrown so off by the fact Assassin as a proper noun refers to an organization that we suddenly can't use a normal, general word that is correct in a context. Like Templars, Cultists of Kosmos, and regular people can be referred to as assassins too when they assassinate someone. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 23:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I understand that. We seek to explain the info from an in-universe perspective, I get that. It's just that even Odyssey is careful not to call them by that noun, and I think it does to avoid confusion. I must admit that I kinda liked it as a figure of speech, Iltani's group is refered to as "brotherhood". You know, because they are proto-Assassins. You know what? I abstain hehe. I'll go with whatever you go, mates. Perhaps we could explain the difference for those who are confused in the Behind The Scenes section of the page. Maybe.Cristophorus35 (talk) 19:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we can check what are some general words that have been used to describe this group in Legacy of the First Blade. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 22:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

If I remember well, they often used the term Protector of Persia for Artabanus. When Armoges died, Darius even said WE are protectors. We can maybe use it.Francesco75 (talk) 22:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

"Protectors of Persia" then? that way it doesn't have his name in it at all.VilkaIsBack (talk) 02:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

That actually sounds like a good idea. Can we find a few quotes just to really verify this though? Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 03:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

In the memory "Protector of Persia":

Huntsman: Yes "Darius," tell them about our promise.

Darius: To protect Persia... Our children. Their future.

Huntsman: Then—then why did... Why did you betray us?

Darius: To keep that promise.

[...]

Darius: It's time I told you the truth about Artabanus, Protector of Persia.

[...]

Amorges: What if the Order aren't our enemy? They're powerful. Maybe if we work with them, we'll have all the resources we need to protect Persia.

In "A Flight in Fire":

Darius: We were protectors, Amorges. Champions of the people. This is wrong!

In the memory "Legacy of the First Blade":

Amorges: The sun rises, but she also sets. My time is over, old friend.

Darius: We were protectors, Amorges. We were champions of Persia. Of the people!

Amorges: I still am, Artabanus. I only wanted to keep our home safe—the world safe. Francesco75 (talk) 07:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Ooh, I'm convinced that "Protectors of Persia" is better. :O What does everyone else think? Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 17:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

🙋VilkaIsBack (talk) 05:32, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm convinced. 100%.Cristophorus35 (talk) 20:52, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Sure. – Soranin (talk) 00:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Also supporting, so that's 5 of us. ACOD template has been changed, so there'll be fewer redirects to filter out from transclusions. – Darman (talk) 03:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC)