Talk:Advisor of the Templar Order
Delete proposal
This is an ongoing discussion.I do not think this page or its category warrant creation. "Advisor" is anyone who gives recommendations on future actions, I do not think it is a specific rank so much as a general and interchangeable position like "aide". As well, it is based almost entirely on Revolutionary-era French Templars, just like the Lieutenants page which I also feel questionable about. If both "positions" are one-offs for the Rite as well as something that no other Rite has ever had, as opposed to previously-established ranks like Master Templar, I do not see a need for either page. Meanwhile, Ellen Kaye's inclusion here is peculiar. The page lede says "Advisor is [a] subordinate rank", yet she apparently counts as one just for suggesting that Alan Rikkin take a different course of action, even though she outranks him and her "suggestion" would be more like an unspoken order. – Darman (talk) 02:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. This feels descriptive rather than prescriptive. God I hope I used that phrase right, otherwise I'm gunna feel really foolish. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- Disagreed. Firstly, it is an existing rank we've known about since Brotherhood within the whole Templar Order. To suggest otherwise despite there being mostly known history within the Parisian Rite is, as per the sources there, just wrong, and if lacking history on issues are cause for deletion then there's a lot of bloat in the Wiki and I don't think such a clean up is a current objective. Taking the Rites page as an example, we can pretty much remove all the individual pages (Borgia towers and other examples) on how Templar exercise their control because we can, and according to consensus here and now, should do so in that page alone. However I think adding all this info within the Parisian Rite page would make it bloated and no individual Rite is merged with a rank page at all currently.
- To add a second thing, Templar ranks have a specific function and that's why I consistently work, when I'm actually here, on structure sections more than history sections to actually explain the function of say the rank of Lieutenants and Advisors. Advisors being lacking for info in the current state is simply a fault of my own expecting others that write history better to do so and therefore I come in afterwards to detail the function of the rank by cross referencing its history.
- Council of Elders discussion is one where their position as a board of directors for Abstergo and therefore its CEO (like Rikkin) always goes unmentioned and therefore the "superiority" of it as a rank confuses the Wiki, and coincidently, it's also a rank within the Inner Sanctum with an advisory role lacking much history alongside Guardians and the General of the Cross. So I guess the most efficient thing here is to delete all three given lacking history, being isolated within the Inner Sanctum and we can fit all their info in the Inner Sanctum page instead of maintaining these until it get expanded in lore like the Advisors have more of and for the matter Lieutenants too.
- Lastly, this Wiki have and Sol has acknowledged it I in a talk page discussion with me that Templar pages have been neglected long and therefor I've said I focus on to pick up on the issue, to already start deleting would simply prove the point further and omit what is currently known of these ranks despite the opinions on them expressed here. ACsenior (talk) 05:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- This page just seems to be taking any broad advisory position within the Templars as a formal rank of "Advisor". Vetinari(Appointment) 12:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- For the same reason we do so with Master Templars, the Master Templars in the Inner Sanctum as the council of the entire Templar Order does not serve the same function as Master Templars within individual Rites under a Grand Master, would you not agree?ACsenior (talk) 12:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- I move for deletion, having perused most of the appearances listed on the page at this time (I have not gone back to Blade of Shao Jun). Its appearance in Brotherhood is limited to the name of one of the grades from the Templar Scoring System, indicating that it is a rank during the modern day, and is supposedly beneath "Seneschal" and above "Commander". No other information can be gleaned from this source, moving on. Going through the text files for Unity, we can find "advisor" in a two places, though one is referring to Mirabeau as having been paid by Louis XVI for his advice. The other is at the start, during the Helix menu bit, where the subtitles read "In this episode of Fallen Heroes, experience Jacques De Molay's final tragic hours through the eyes of one of his closest friends and advisors." Considering the subtitles themselves do not capitalize advisor, though it does this during the same memory for "Grand Master", I do not think this is a person with the rank Advisor, just a friend who advises de Molay. The word "advisor" does not appear at all in the Unity novelisation, nor in the movie's novelisation.
- TL;DR: Though I believe this is an actual rank, I don't believe the other appearances listed here, and from which this page is pretty much entirely sourced from, are about that rank. - Soranin (talk) 15:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- Well I have been going thought the Unity novel and it not only uses "advisor" several times, it also has the explicit use of the words a "Templar Council". therefore, the Council info regarding the De Molay memory has to be corrected according to this and the memory itself capitalise Council while the guard speaks of it having sessions and can make absolute decisions. As for it still existing in modern day, I would assume so as it's by the fact-checking of novel Unity and De Molay memory is not just a rank, it appears the Parisian Rite is the only Rite with a Templar Council. Also, I am looking for a quote in the novel I remember about a character saying Advisors are meant to guide Grand Masters to following Templar principles, basically the same definition as the Council of Elders as Advisors for the Inner Sanctum. The Essential Guide is the source for the Council of Elders as being Advisors.ACsenior (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- For the same reason we do so with Master Templars, the Master Templars in the Inner Sanctum as the council of the entire Templar Order does not serve the same function as Master Templars within individual Rites under a Grand Master, would you not agree?ACsenior (talk) 12:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- This page just seems to be taking any broad advisory position within the Templars as a formal rank of "Advisor". Vetinari(Appointment) 12:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
[sigh] Please tell me, where in my proposal did I say that other Templar-related pages should also be deleted on the basis of lacking in-universe history? We are discussing Lieutenants and Advisors only. As Soranin says above, Advisor is never rendered as a proper noun throughout the series (and thank you for looking through the Multiplayer, I had no clue how to navigate that), nor is Lieutenant presented that way in the Unity novel, and so both "positions" are more general terms than vacant slots in a hierarchy. Looking at your and Sol's talk pages, the only instance I see of you two discussing it is from Jan 2021 on his third Archive, where you list these presumed ranks amongst real ones, and all he says is he's "excited to see more of your work on Templar pages", which does not confirm them as applicable elsewhere. With no luck there, I tried your main page talk and user talk contributions, and unless I missed it, this topic has not been discussed between Jan 2021 and now, nor have other users agreed on or rejected it unless it was on Discord or Fandom's Community chat, neither of which I really participate in. – Darman (talk) 16:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)