Talk:Sage

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Reincarnations of Aita

If Sages are reincarnations of Aita doesn't that mean there can only be one incarnation at any given time period? How can Thom Kavanaugh (1652 - 1700s) and John Bartholomew Roberts (17 May 1682 – 10 February 1722) coexist? Bartlmay (talk) 15:33, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

How can they not be? They have the memories and personality of Aita in addition to their own imprinted in their being. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 15:36, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think 'reincarnation' is an iffy term for what the Sages are, but there's nothing that says reincarnations have to be consecutive, rather than concurrent. Indeed, given that two of the three known Sages lived at the same time, it's actually more likely that another Sage is alive in 2013, than not. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 12:06, November 19, 2013 (UTC)

This article is riddled with assumptions. The Grand Llama (talk) 23:44, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

Did the assassins and templars of the time (late 17th/early 18th century) know that sages were incarnations of the precursor civilization member Aita? Kenway clearly had no idea what was going on with roberts in the observatory. Also did the people of abstergo entertainment know what was up with John in terms of him being Aita? Gr1m r4p3r (talk) 14:34, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Kenway wasn't an Assassin or Templar at the time. But to answer your question, no. No, they did not know they were reincarnations of Aita; only that they possessed knowledge of the location of the Observatory, and the means to access it. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 14:39, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

Roberts clearly knew he was a reincarnation - vide his dying words. --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 17:06, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

I think Jasca was talking about the late 17th/early 18th century Templars there, Kain. I don't think they knew of the Sages' true origins, but it's been a while since I completed Black Flag, so my memory might be hazy. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 17:14, January 17, 2014 (UTC)

What about the people of the modern times at abstergo entertainment and Shaun and Rebecca? Did they know what was going on with John right at the end? Gr1m r4p3r (talk) 23:34, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

Obviously not. --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 23:40, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

Addition to category of First Civilization?

Considering the intrinsic link between the Sages and the First Civilization, especially in how many follow the ideals of the Instruments of the First Will, even if not intentionally (see also, Bartholomew Roberts and François-Thomas Germain), it seems like a big enough link to put them in the category for it at the bottom. I can easily be wrong. I just thought I'd put it out there as an option.GZilla311 (talk) 22:41, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Clay Kaczmarek ?

Is Clay also a Sage ? Or is one of his ancestors maybe a sage ? Cause in Unitys ending we saw how Germain saw those sign, some of them are equal to them Clay saw an "wrote" on the wall at abstergo. What do you think ? GrandTheftAndi (talk) 00:09, November 22, 2014 (UTC)

No, Clay is not a Sage. Why would Clay be a Sage? There's nothing indicating that. Desmond's not a Sage either, and he saw those symbols too, in the Colosseum Vault. Clay relived the lives of a whole lot of people. Through his own genetic memory, he witnessed those symbols, similarly to how "we" do. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 00:13, November 22, 2014 (UTC)

something on sages

This mentions david johns but also someone form the fith century, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tli_GKcP76o.--FossilLord 05:50, December 4, 2014 (UTC)

Pendant

The portrait on 'his' pendant (Roberts and John) could be Juno Hutchy01 (talk) 21:40, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

That's why it's noted in the Trivia sections of both Roberts' and John's articles. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 21:59, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Roberts, I doubt, since it was already on Howell Davis' corpse. --Kainzorus Prime ⚜ ^{Walkie-talkie} 22:33, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

How many Sages can there be at once?

Can Sages be in the same year but in different countries or? – Awesomekid120 (talk) 15:51, February 5, 2015 (UTC)Awesomekid120

Yes, they can. Sages Thomas Kavanagh, Jr.'s and Bartholomew Roberts's lifetimes overlapped and they both lived in the same region, though they didn't meet, as far as we know. As for how many Sages can be alive at the same time, who knows? At least two, but probably more. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 15:55, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, was really confused about that one – Awesomekid120 (talk) 15:58, February 5, 2015 (UTC)Awesomekid120

speculation

Is it possible that Adha of Assassin's Creed: Altaïr's Chronicles is a sage? —unsigned comment by Spanish assassin (talk · contr)

No - for one, all know Sages have been male. And secondly, she's already the "Chalice". Crook ^{The Constantine District} 10:36, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

Syndicate says there's a possibility for females to be Sages, but she's lacking the signature heterochromia. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 10:47, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

Mercenary Chalkon the Sage

I find in the mercenary list an individual who seems to have heterochromia and his bio said that he tried to conquer the world. Maybe a sage? I don't know this mercenary his randomized or present for all players.Francesco75 (talk) 08:00, April 2, 2019 (UTC)

Possibly, but it would be speculative to include him on this article. --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:12, April 2, 2019 (UTC)

Article's Chronology

The chronological order of the facts in the history section is wrong. Osteoderrms (talk) 04:57, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

Reincarnation in intro

Can someone think of a better word for this? It’s a bit misleading as the mechanics behind sagehood are genetic rather than "soul" transfer. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 21:04, April 17, 2020 (UTC)

Use of the term in Valhalla

Does the term Sage actually get used in Valhalla to describe Eivor and co? Or is this just unsourced fanon? if yes to the former this article needs a lot of updating. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 15:32, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know, Sage is only ever used to refer to Aita's incarnations, not any of the other Isu. Unless this can be sourced this should be removed. — Zero-ELEC (talk) 06:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

One of the letter's in Aelfred's study seems to suggest that the OotA thought of Eivor and the others as Sages. They view them as Isu reborn. V i l k a T h e W o l f (talk) 06:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Also during the final vision in Jotunheim, Juno states that she will use the same method that the one she helped Odin to steal, to resurrect her husband... Maxattac (talk) 07:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

The letter actually seems to imply they view them differently with ones that repeat being Sages (Aita) and ones that don't being unnamed (Aesir). And Juno's method is clearly different in some manner given that the Aesir was a one time thing. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 04:25, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello everyone! Hope you're doing okay. I'd like for us to continue this discussion regarding the Sages and Isu "Reincarnations" we see in Valhalla. Right now, the Sage article include Aita's and the Norse Isu's reincarnations, but in reality they don't fall under the same category. It has been reported by several members of our community, and some helpers from others, that having all these under the "Sage" page is inconsistent and they are indeed correct. Furthermore, the game does provide proof that confirms that not all reincarnations should fall under the category of sages: The nature of the mead and the different methods (and apparently different technology used) it went under Odin's and Juno's supervision, and the document written by Charlemagne's scholar. These support the idea that the "Sage" label should only go to those "reincarnations" that continue spawning for larger periods of time and should not include the Aesir reincarnations. Having this in mind, it's important for us that the wiki reflects this info in our related articles.

Now, here're some recollected suggestions:

1. To divide this into three pages: Isu reincarnations (explaining this reincarnation stuff in general), Sages (explaining the sage stuff, leave it as it was before including the Aesir reincarnations), and Reborn (Title suggested by IMHOZen1, this is how Fulke and Hildiran refers to these Norse Isu reincarnations. Here we'd explain those reincarnations that happen only once in a lifetime, never again to be seen again once they die).
2. Explain everything in the same page (titled "Isu reincarnations), and divided into two sections: Sages and Reborns.
3. Establish a "Mead" page explaining the 7th method of salvation and there explain the reincarnation stuff, serving as a disambig page. And we'd call them "Aesir reincarnations" rather than Reborns. (Suggested by Sima)
4. Let them remain in the Sage page but create a new section called "Similar cases" and detail how they differ from the definition of Sage explicitly given in Valhalla. (Suggested by Lacrossedaemon)
5. I don't really have a fifth suggestion...

If you have more suggestions, please post them here! And as always, sorry for my English. Cristophorus35 (talk) 05:36, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Cristophorus35,
I know I'm not in the wider community Discord talks, but I'm not certain that this a good idea. The Æsir are still born in human bodies like Aita was, even if they use a different method than...whatever it was that he had happen to him, and the page already separates his reincarnations from the Norse Isu ones. Also, we don't know if the Æsir will reincarnate years later just because their first host body dies. Like Aita, their genes are still in human DNA waiting for the right genetic combination to appear to unlock the Isu's memories, and if Aita can inhabit multiple bodies, we cannot discount this can also happen to the Æsir, especially since all but Svala and Basim will have died by the modern day.

Using "Reborn" for the Æsir feels like a speculative fan name when only two characters use it to describe reincarnations with what knowledge they had available. We don't refer to France as Gaul anymore, but that was the contemporary Roman name. Granted, the mead page needs loads of work, but the drink that Odin steals—filtered by Eivor seeing it as the mythical Mead of Poetry (i.e. one lives forever by way of oral/written sagas)—seems to be an unnamed catalyst for an undescribed reaction necessary to use Yggdrasil; that's not enough information to build a page on. – Darman (talk) 14:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Clarifying the distinction between the Sages and 'Sage-like' Aesir on this page seems the sensible choice to me unless the series makes a bigger thing of it post-Elijah. The way I interpreted it was Juno adapts the process further so Aita keeps popping up until reunion where the Aesir attempt was more of a one-time Hail Mary (they're less interesting if they keep resurfacing imo). Redirect the mead serum to the Yggdrasil page maybe? Page for the Seven Methods of Salvation? Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 17:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there'll be any bigger Sage stuff post-Elijah, but that's me. I do think your idea with Juno is something of what she did, using the serum to boost her experiments on Aita, but it's still undefined in AC. The page for the Mead of poetry has been made, as it's named the Discovery Tour in the ACV's promo podcast Echoes of History, it just needs lots of work. Specifically, it'll need a Mythology and History sections like other pages on Isu remembered in Norse myth. – Darman (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Sages In Valhalla

Where is it confirmed in the game that Regna was a Sage ? If I remember correctly there is only a mention of her having heterochromia in the Nun report on Regna dissection. Is that enough to state that she was a Sage, because Alexander too had heterochromia yet he is not listed as a Sage. Also, I probably missed it but where is it stated or implied in Valhalla that Halfdan was Thor reborn ?Maxattac (talk) 07:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

In Frideswid's autopsy notes, she mentioned Regna's heterochromia and how it was a connection to the precursor gods. She's not 100% confirmed to be Sage but the OotA seem to think she is at least. There is nothing to suggest Alexander the Great was a Sage except his heterochromia. At least with Regna theres accompanying notes regarding the fact. V i l k a T h e W o l f (talk) 14:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)