Talk:Thorvald Hjaltason

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"Proto-Assassin" and "Proto-Templar"

Are these two terms actually used in Last Descendants? Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 15:52, May 1, 2020 (UTC)

For the Templars, Torgny only mentions "The Order" and while speaking to King Eric he says that he and Thorvald are part of a "Brotherhood", never use the terms Templars/Ancients or Hidden Ones/Assassins...Maxattac (talk) 16:19, May 1, 2020 (UTC)

If you're asking what the Modern Day characters think of their ancestors, they say they're Assassins or Templars, not adding proto or calling them Hidden Ones.Maxattac (talk) 16:26, May 1, 2020 (UTC)

I'm asking because I understand that since the release of Origins, some fans have taken to designating all Assassins and Templars prior to the Assassin state and the Knights Templar as "proto" under the belief that they must be because the names "Assassin" and "Templar" wouldn't have existed until then. I think we need to be careful about this because there's a difference between a name change and a time before the organization existed. The line of course can blur; some might argue Assassins can be traced all the way back to Adam and Eve, but the implication being made here is that the Assassin and Templar organizations have been retconned to not having existed until their public forms in the Middle Ages.

If we are strict with sourcing, however, the retcon that Ubisoft has made is that the Assassins were founded by Bayek and Aya; that is what they marketed with Origins. This is the new line they have chosen to draw. Just because the Assassins then were known by a different name, the Hidden Ones, doesn't mean that they weren't the same organization with clear continuity. We can be less sure about where Ubisoft draws the line with the Templars, but I believe that the safest is to take the Order of the Ancients as the Templar parallel to the Hidden Ones.

I know a few editors have also argued that the retcon invalidates how modern Assassins call Darius, Iltani, etc. Assassins, but I believe that this is an assumption that needs proof. Like you said, the modern day Assassins could be calling them that retrospectively. I think referring to Assassins and Templars before the Levantine state and the Crusader order as "Assassins" and "Templars" is a safer course than to call them "proto-Assassins" and "proto-Templars". Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 16:57, May 1, 2020 (UTC)

Maybe just add a footnote that refering to them as such is anachronistic until further explored in later entries. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 17:28, May 1, 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I just object to using "proto-Assassin" and "proto-Templar" liberally because the names are mostly popularized by us, and we have the potential to make the mistake of being the ones to actually affect the canon around those terms, perhaps in a way that complicates canon. I think I should make a forum post about this. That aside, do we know that it is anachronistic though? Certainly, we can now surmise more than ever that the terms did not arise until their medieval incarnations, but what is our source for that? While Templar is a short-form for Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon or whatever, how do we know that the Assassins didn't adopt their name at some point prior to forming a state? Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 23:58, May 1, 2020 (UTC)