Talk:Roi des Thunes

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Definite article

Given this is the title of the man, not his actual name, shouldn't this have the definite article 'le'? (compare: La Volpe, The Dagger) Sadelyrate (siniath) 13:21, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

There's no rule that a title or a title used to refer to a person has to have a definite article (e.g. Prince of Wales, Emperor of Japan, King of England). Titles would be grammatically preceded by the definite article in prose, but the definite article would not actually be part of the title itself (e.g. "the Emperor of Japan" but the is not part of the title). In fact, I have pointed out before about my skepticism that The Duelist or other similar titles should have the definite article, but it really depends on the individuals who created that title if they had intended the definite article to be part of it or not. Usually, if it is not clear, the definite article should not be added, but if it is clear (as in the case of La Volpe), it should. Perhaps, it is that titles which consist of a single word like "the Duelist" or "the Fox" need the definite article for clarity. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 21:19, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

I'm not well versed in this sort of grammar rules but it seems to me that the article get dropped when talking about a title that refers to a group such as king of England but when the title refers to a specific individual it should be kept? Le Roi de Thunes is interesting because it’s actually both; it’s a title that has been held by multiple people but our article is written in such a way that it is used to only refer to a certain person. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 22:16, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Fwiw, I agree with Lacrosse. As in, in the context of this specific wiki, there's just one King of Beggars. But us commoners can't go changing it, 'cause 'Le Roi des Thunes' is already redirected to this article. (This whole thing brought to you by the fact that in the description of the Poison Pin among Arno Dorian's mementos, the King is referred to as 'le Roi des Thunes'.) Sadelyrate (siniath) 22:28, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Lacrosse, I don't mean to come across as too blunt, but that is not correct. :-/ It sounds entirely alien to me, is not mentioned in the Wikipedia MoS, and has never been the explanation in any grammar books or style guides I have consulted. Even if when there had only been one Emperor of the French, the title as a proper noun was still "Emperor of the French" not "the Emperor of the French". Of course, the holder of that title would be referred to in running text as "the Emperor of the French" but the would not be part of the proper noun. The formal title does not change just because it suddenly has been passed onto another individual such that there has now been more than one person who has held that title. The title of the President of United States has always been "President of the United States" not "The President of the United States" when George Washington was president.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the situation is ambiguous for le Roi des Thunes since it is not clear if the definite article is part of the proper noun or not. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 23:11, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

So after reading the Wikipedia page on Naming conventions in regards to articles I am at an impasse. It gives two conventions of which one must be met. I feel it meets condition one but it doesn’t meet the second at least in the one example I know of. I think the second condition might trump the first in this case. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 00:32, April 9, 2020 (UTC)

Given that La Volpe isn’t alone, as well as the character being referred to in the Wikipedia article for characters with the definite article, as well in in-game material, not to mention Sol recently adding the definite article to the name of The Cygnet... Le Roi des Thunes seems to really demand that definite article. Especially for consistency’s sake. Sadelyrate (siniath) 17:51, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

The definite article tends to be more needed when the title is just a single word, but it's much rarer when the title consists of multiple words and as far as I know almost unheard of when it has a possessive. I think you guys aren't quite understanding my point. As I said, it ultimately comes down to the source material: does it include the definite article or not as the part of the proper noun? There's no hard and fast rule beyond this. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 21:50, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

As I implied in my last bit it doesn’t pass the condition of being capitalized in running text in either French or English. I think my main issue here is that this should be two pages. One for the position which has been held by multiple people. And another for the individual that was assassinated by Arno. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 22:09, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I missed your last reply sorry. Here's a link for Sadel and any others joining this discussion. Actually in regards to the second condition, whether or not definite articles should be capitalized even when it is an official part of the name is also an issue.

I have always found our editors' habit of capitalizing the definite article in names like "the Monger", "The Duelist", etc. to be really incorrect. After all, the Beatles always has the definite article lower-case in running text, across all sources I've seen throughout my life. As well, style guides I have consulted before like the Canadian Press and the Associated Press noted to only capitalize the definite article in a name (when the name isn't at the beginning of a sentence) if and only if there is a widespread formal convention for it, like The Hague, and usually because it is something of great political importance, and this is also what the second condition listed in that Wikipedia article is likely referring to. (That second condition also refers to book titles like "The Lord of the Rings" instead of "the Lord of the Rings".)

However, the fact that Wookieepedia apparently seems to capitalize the definite article when it is part of the name and the fact Assassin's Creed sources does have a habit of doing so for these mundane characters' names as well makes me second guess. For example, I specifically identified the definite article in the Cygnet as part of the name and made the move because it is capitalized in the source material. While I don't know if the capitalization is correct since Ubisoft tends to mess these things up as well, I took this sort of emphasis as at least a sign that it is an official part of the name. Moreover, I realize that the definite article in La Volpe is clearly always meant to be capitalized, but this is because it doesn't look awkward in English, being a foreign name.

The capitalization question aside, the first condition is a more accurate way of explaining what I just said about how names which are just one word are more likely to need the definite article. So going at last back to the King of Beggars, it doesn't meet the first condition, as "King of Beggars" is a title that is distinct from any general noun. I am not sure if it meets the second condition because I have yet had the time to double-check with Unity.

I agree that there should probably be two articles: one for the character and one for the position. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 22:41, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

I’d say capitalizing the definite article could. Be used to differentiate between the title/position and the individual only known by said title but maybe I’m looking at it the wrong way. It definitely doesn’t pass the second in the novel which only uses the English. In the game I only know of the memento example which it also doesnt pass but in that they use the French. Not sure about the database article.Lacrossedeamon (talk) 23:57, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

This is in response to Sol’s pondering on in-game usage: the memento includes the definite article, as does in-game memory description, as showcased here. (Btw, not sure ”position held by numerous” is backed up by canon.)Sadelyrate (siniath) 00:06, April 12, 2020 (UTC)

But it’s not being capitalized in either instance which I think might be the issue. The memento description had other grammatical errors such as the use of the particle de instead of des so it’s hard trust that source anyways. And for "held by numerous" it’s backed by the database entry and de Sade becoming the new one. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 00:13, April 12, 2020 (UTC)