Talk:Prime minister

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Necessity and scope

Should we really have an article on as broad a position as prime ministers across all history and every country or should we have more narrow articles for the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Premiers of the Soviet Union, etc.? And this sets a precedent for an article on "President" and on "King". I personally think that instead of an article on "President", we should have an article on "President of the United States" and likewise instead of an article on "Prime minister", we should have an article on "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom". Not all leadership positions with the same name or which are analogous to one another are really the same since the context differs between different political systems. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 15:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Sidestepping commenting on the necessity of this page, I will say that "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom‏‎" is currently a redlink with 2 links to it. - Soranin (talk) 16:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking that "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom" would be too specific. But I do also think an article for "President" should also be made, not just "President of the United States". Can always just remove the list of people, and just have the page be about what a prime minister is. VilkaIsBack (talk) 00:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm making this a deletion proposal because I do think that the article topic is too broad. The topic is basically the governmental position either titled prime minister, translated as prime minister, or analogous to the office of a prime minister in modern parliamentary systems or semi-presidential republics—or maybe it means to refer to the head of government in any country?. "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom" is not any more specific than "Grand Master of the Templar Order". It would refer to an actual office/title rather than a concept generalizing and encompassing a wide range of offices. For a real-world encyclopedia like Wikipedia, it makes sense to have an article on that concept, but there is no such necessity here on the Assassin's Creed Wiki.

Moreover, the lede as it currently reads is not accurate to the historical Chinese prime ministers listed, as their governments were neither parliamentary systems nor semi-presidential republics. Even among historical Chinese prime ministers, the office and title were not always the same. To simplify things, I think an article summarizing Chinese premiership throughout history is in order, but it would be better organized to keep them separate from British prime ministers. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 12:49, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Of course this invites the question of whether we should also have articles on "emperor", "king", "khan", etc. I would disagree. A Chinese emperor, a sultan, a Persian "king of kings", a khagan, the Holy Roman Emperor, a Roman emperor, Victoria as "the Empress of India", etc. are all distinct enough in their historical and political contexts that if we were to have articles on the position of emperor, it would be better organization to discuss them separately. I also don't think that an article on a generic title like "king", "president", "general", etc. are warranted on our wiki to begin with. But finally, we should be consistent with precedent set by our articles on the Grand Master of the Templar Order, Grand Master of the Knights Hospitalier, and Grand Master of the Knights Teutonic, where we have them as separate articles as opposed to having one article on "Grand master". To summarize, an article should be about the office, not the title. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 12:57, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

If no one else assents to a deletion of this article, I won't delete it because it shouldn't be a unilateral decision, but if there are also no objections, I will also create the "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom" article and an article on the prime minister aka chancellor of China (not sure of the precise article title at the moment) if only to be consistent with the practice set by the articles on grand masters. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 10:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd object to the deleting of it, mainly cos I made it and put in a lot of work. To get to fit more in line with AC I guess it can just be made more brief. I mean, we've got an article on Ealdorman but not everything single Ealdorman of every county, or Jarl of every Scandinavian country, so why not one one just Prime Minister? VilkaIsBack (talk) 11:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I by no means wish to diminish the value of your work or disrespect the time and energy you put into this article, but one's own authorship is not a valid argument for the retention of an article. Length of the article is not an issue; it is actually quite short as it is. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 17:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I also vote for deletion. As Sol has said, not all prime minister positions are the same, but even that aside, ealdorman and jarl have a variety of ACV sources on the title's responsibilities and who held them, while I don't believe any prime ministers' specific duties for any nation they serve term(s) in are ever elaborated on in-universe. – Darman (talk) 03:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm deleting this now, but I do wish to make one final note. I didn't properly address Vilka's good argument before regarding the existence of articles on ealdorman and jarl. My rebuttal to that would be that those titles are narrower in meaning because they pertain to specific socio-cultural systems whereas "prime minister" is kind of a catch-all for many titles of similar rank and position. There can be articles on viziers and prime ministers aka chancellors of imperial China instead. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 07:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)