Talk:Knights Templar

This is the discussion page for Knights Templar. Here, you may discuss improving the article. To discuss the subject itself, use the Forums.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.	Be polite Assume good faith Do not insult other people

Definition

So what caught my attention here is that some Parisian Templars are categorized as Levantine Templars. And according to The Essential Guide. Factions or divisions within the Templar Order are referred to as Rites. And Rites are defied geographically, I.e. the Colonial Rite and the Parisian Rite. And Grand Masters are responsible for a geographical region. Grand Masters are leaders of a specific Rite, and have control of all members of that Rite and their activity. As an example, Jacques de Molay should be categorized as a Parisian Templar and be included as a member of the Parisian Rite. And of course including him but not adding the Temple in Paris as a HQ and not adding France as the region the Levantine Rite operated in isn't consistent either. But doing that would be consistent with the definitions provided. I could change it but I'd rather avoid an edit battle, so he's the argument. The definitions are copied almost word by word to. Just to avoid a debate even more.--ACsenior (talk) 17:56, February 7, 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it up, for I was thinking exactly the same thing. He's not mentioned as part of the Levantine Rite in The Essential Guide, nor would he be given that he was based in Paris and rites are delineated geographically. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 03:55, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

Does the Essential Guide give any clear confirmation of the existence of a 'Levantine Rite'? Because as far as I am aware, there weren't any Rites until the Order decided to go widespread when Jacques de Molay sent his agents out into the world before his death. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 13:04, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

Good question. Yes, it does actually. Robert de Sablé's entry has him specifically listed as a member of the "Levantine Rite". (I actually think it's possible for the Templars to have applied the name to Robert de Sablé's group retroactively in-universe, but that would be pure speculation). Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 13:10, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

Beyond what Sol said. That hasn't stated at all and was how everyone assumed the structure of the Templar Order was. We also have sources of various Templars before the Crusades that didn't operate in the Middle East, so the Templars existed before the Crusades. What is started is that De Payees did made the Templars an official order and what De Molay did was return the Order to the shadows, the sources for that does't mention any Rites. Because of that we assumed there was no such thing as Rites until after De Molay. The Grand Masters from De Payees to De Molay are also stated that they was the official Grand Masters. Add this and that the The Essential Guide overrule this by stating Grand Masters control specific Rites and that Rites are defined geographically. Then we basically have a confirmation of the existence of Rites based on the Templars operating in their geographical region and what region each Grand Master controlled. De Molay sent 9 Templars with the knowledge of the accident away. But that itself does't prove anything else than that he sent 9 people away.--ACsenior (talk) 16:31, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

Founder parameter

Since the "Founder" parameter was changed to "unknown", given that—as I agree—we do not know for sure that the Levantine Rite did not exist before Hugues de Payens and Bernard de Clairvaux made it public (which would constitute as a reorganization instead), I removed it entirely, but it has been reverted, and so I shall explain my reasoning here.

It has been our consistent format that parameters that are unknown be left blank. Subjects of articles might have several unknown parameters, and it just unnecessarily bloats the article to keep on listing "N/A" or "unknown". Instead we leave them blank, and they get hidden from the infobox instead. This is also why infoboxes have a "hide" option for sections of infoboxes where there is no information.

I should also add that while the information might be unknown to us, it is not to some in-universe characters, such as in this case, the Templars. The "unknown" moniker is therefore coming from an OOU perspective and violates our policy of writing from an IU perspective, or so is my interpretation. I might be wrong though and the infobox doesn't have to be IU, given the "appearance" parameter, but I had assumed that that's because there are specific OOU parameters for an infobox, and "founder" is not one of them. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 20:02, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

Abbas Sofian?

This is an ongoing discussion.

What exactly does the Essential Guide say about him and it is clear and important enough to add it to his page? Lacrossedeamon (talk) 01:32, June 1, 2020 (UTC)

Bump Lacrossedeamon (talk) 02:25, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Move to Knights Templar

As per discussions with Sol (Talk:Templar leader, Talk:Persian Brotherhood of Assassins) we are planning to move this page to just Knights Templar to cover the entire public front of the Templars from 1119 to 1312 which includes members like de Molay who are normally not considered Levantine. As such the page will need a new lede. So far I've brainstormed:

The Knights Templar, also known as the Order of the Knights Templar or the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, was the public face of the Templar Order from its inception in 1119 until its dissolution in 1312. Retrospectively, it has also been considered the Levantine Rite due to its focus on that region during the Crusades.

Are there tweaks to that lede that anyone can think of or any other concerns regarding the move? Lacrossedeamon (talk) 05:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't think of a specific tweak to the lede, it seems pretty solid, but maybe another introductory paragraph could briefly mention the Order's beginnings as the Ancients (we still never resolved that) before their subsequent reforms first under Alfred and then under Bernard de Clairvaux and Hugues de Payens. – Darman (talk) 17:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

While I agree on the creation of the Knights Templar page, I do think that keeping this page separate would be a good idea. Aside from being explicitly identified as a Rite in the Essential Guide, the Templars were active in the Levant both before and after their existence as a public front. Additionally, although the Knights Templar are most well-known for their activities in the Levant, they also operated throughout Europe in numerous strongholds that they either built or captured for themselves. The Wikia Editor (talk) 04:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

So, are we (i.e., is Lacrosse) still doing this or no? It's been 1yr since subject was broached. – Darman (talk) 16:45, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

[Topic resolved in Discord. Lacrosse granted approval on 9 August 2025 to move page.] – Darman (talk) 05:00, 27 September 2025 (UTC)