Talk:John of Montecorvino
For reference[edit source]
This is a direct citation of everything my copy of Ming Storm has on this person.
- While Zhang Yong’s martial arts were intrinsically Buddhist, his own spirituality was yelikewen, a Christian faith painfully imported to China in the twenty-sixth year of the Yuan dynasty by the Jesuit Jean de Montecorvino and which had not been welcomed by the Nestorians, who had been present in the East since the Tang dynasty. The latter, who counted the descendants of Genghis Khan among their ranks, considered the yelikewens to be even more dangerous heretics than the Buddhists, and had quickly persecuted and exterminated them, before disappearing in their turn during the fall of the Yuans. Between his arrival in China and his death, Jean de Montecorvino been proclaimed bishop of Cambaluc – the old name for Beijing – and had been emulated in the highest spheres of power. His faith persisted over the generations, particularly among idealistic eunuchs like Zhang Yong, who claimed to be Templars with aspirations such as reviving the legendary order of holy knights. - Chapter 14
That's it. One paragraph, which does not have him as a member of the Templar Order. I have, however, heard this is not true of the Chinese version, but since no proof has been provided, I am cautious in believing it and would like to see both the chinese and french versions of this paragraph. - Soranin (talk) 16:24, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Thanks to Blue-castle over on discord, we've found that the French copy is consistent with the english version:
- Mais entre son arrivée en Chine et sa mort, Jean de Montecorvino avait été proclamé évêque de Cambaluc - l'ancien nom de Pékin - et fait des émules dans les hautes sphères du pouvoir. Sa foi perdura au fil des générations, notamment auprès d'eunuques idéologistes comme Zhang Yong, qui se revendiquait des Templiers [...].
Which translates to
- But between his arrival in China and his death, John of Montecorvino had been proclaimed bishop of Cambaluc - the old name for Beijing - and made emulators in the upper echelons of power. His faith endured through the generations, particularly with ideological eunuchs like Zhang Yong, who claimed to be a Templar [...].
I am very much inclined to disagree with classifying this man as a Templar. - Soranin (talk) 16:48, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Seconded. The templar in the sense refers to Zhang Yong instead, not John. XOdeyssusx (talk) 23:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
This issue has been discussed in the editorial group of Chinese wiki before, and I just learned that English wiki does not correspond to this information. We compared the Chinese original version with the French version and the English version, and found that some contents had been omitted from the French version, which is very important for John's identity definition.
The corresponding chapters in the original Chinese version are excerpted as follows, which clearly states that John was a Templar:
- 至元二十六年，方济各修士孟高维诺受教皇革利免八世任命，为汗八里（北京）主教。但也里可温教因为来得晚，在景教打压下一直未能有大发展，反而也里可温寺被景教徒所夺之事屡屡发生。因为信徒多是蒙古人和色目人，元室覆灭后，中原景教已然烟消云散，也里可温教自然也就再无痕迹了。只是当初孟高维诺主教在元代大内中传下了一支，当元室覆灭，宗王大臣大多北逃后，太监宫女却有不少流了下来，代代相传，一直到了现在。
- “圣殿骑士”。
- 这是这支隐秘的也里可温教徒世代相传的名称。这个名称其实远在孟高维诺主教传教以前很久就有了，只是圣殿所指云何，在遥远东方的这些信徒早已茫然不晓，因此张永他们也一直以“驺虞组”这个名目出现，而这一脉的功法更是因为改朝换代而残缺不全。张永心怀大志，博览群书，很早就发誓要恢复本门武功。 - Chapter 14 生死劫
It shows that this sect was the Templar itself, and we Chinese editors all acquiesce in this conclusion. but we can't find the corresponding content in the French version. I don't know whether it's because of religion or some reason.一个赛艇门 (talk) 09:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Considering both that this series has you fist-fighting a Pope and the Inquisition is a recurring villanous organization (including in the widely released movie and the soon to be published final YA novel for Fragments), I believe it is far more likely to be a retcon than censorship. - Soranin (talk) 17:33, 6 December 2021 (UTC)