Talk:Egyptian mythology

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Move to "Egyptian religion"

I would suggest that this article be renamed to "Egyptian religion" because in the context of Assassin's Creed: Origins, the topic concerns more of the actual religion than an ancient collection of myths that has faded into fantasy with the sands of time. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 00:32, September 19, 2018 (UTC)

In that case I’d say we should call it Ancient or Pharonic Egyptian Religion as Egyptian religion could be construed as religion of Egypt which is now mainly Islam and Coptic Christianity. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 03:55, September 19, 2018 (UTC)

I did think that was the obvious solution, but I also thought that since in the context of AC, the main time frame of Egypt is not contemporary Egypt, but Egypt in classical antiquity (heck not even exactly ancient Egypt), it might not be proper to have to modify it with that descriptor. After all, this is the indigenous Egyptian religion, the Egyptian religion, not a religion in Egypt; if our reference point is Egypt as it was... indigenous Egypt, shouldn't a hypothetical article on contemporary religion in Egypt be the one needing disambiguating descriptors instead? Of course, a rebuttal would still be that indigenous Egyptian religion is commonly called "ancient Egyptian religion", but I just do not think it is very proper. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 05:06, September 19, 2018 (UTC)

That is to say, whereas Wikipedia's page on Egyptian religion is a disambiguation between religion in Egypt and Ancient Egyptian religion, I would argue that in the context of AC, "ancient Egyptian religion" is the primary topic for the name Egyptian religion per the Manual of Style. The name "ancient Egyptian religion", which is merely descriptive, is only used when it is necessary to distinguish between "religion in Egypt" and the indigenous Egyptian religion. In this case, this is not necessary. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 05:13, September 19, 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough but should it get a what is your name banner as “Egyptian religion” is more a definition rather than a name for it. Although they might not have even had an actual name for their belief system to begin with. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 05:40, September 19, 2018 (UTC)

It’s a shame Pharaonism was used for a nationalist movement and Kemetism is neopagan. Atenism got it’s own distinct name. Damn this whole thing is giving me flash backs to the Copts as the ethnic identity discussion. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 05:59, September 19, 2018 (UTC)

Separation of Isu and deities

Given everything in Odyssey, might it be a good idea to separate the Isu from the Greek deities? Given lack of evidence that it was actually the Isu Jupiter going around trying to bonk anything that moved, and actually the counterevidence that it was the Kretan Bull that caused the Minotaur, it would be certainly worth it to consider, imo. Sadelyrate (siniath) 12:11, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

I suggest having a section in the Isu person's article detailing how they influenced certain cultures' mythology instead of having separate pages. IE on Jupiter’s page have a section called Influence on Hellenistic religions (Greek/Roman/Etruscan) with all the facts about him from a mythological standpoint mentions in the games. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 12:50, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

But every time the deities are named in, say, Odyssey or Origins, the people are thinking of the character of the deity, not the Isu the deity might be based on. Similarly, Athena's statues don't depict the Isu known as Minerva, after all. Sadelyrate (siniath) 12:58, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

I’d argue that the statues depict a cultural memory of a real person but things morph over the millennia since she’s died and the numerous language changes from Isuan (?) to Greek. Or would you have be like Wikipedia's Jesus and Histoircal Jesus page’s.Lacrossedeamon (talk) 13:17, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

Compare, rather, the fact that both Jesus and Mithras have their own pages, despite sharing the story. Otherwise...why's there the big brouhaha about Aita being Juno's husband, when that was Jupiter? Speaking of Aita, why not mention he's Jupiter's brother? Sadelyrate (siniath) 14:32, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

My theory behind Aita being Juno's husband is because they might also be Osiris and Isis. Same reason why Hephaestus is older than Juno because he’s actually Ptah or Voltumna. The reason we can’t mention that Aita and Jupiter are brothers is because we don’t know that. We know they are portrayed as such in mythology but as I said over time things get, lost, confused, and changed, but I don’t feel it means we need new pages for them as deities. I think a section in the Greek religion page and a section in their Isu basis is sufficient. However I do feel we should get other editors to weigh in on this. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 15:34, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

Same would go if Juno and Jupiter were variants of Osiris and Isis, for Hera and Zeus were siblings, too. Lacking a mention in-game hasn't stopped people in this wiki from claiming Poseidon and Hades as Jupiter and Juno's brother, even if under the names of Zeus and Hera. Which highlights my point. Sadelyrate (siniath) 16:10, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

Unless they are framing it from a mythological stand point, those people are in the wrong to say anyone is Jupiter’s brother as we don’t know if he even had siblings. But if they say that "Jupiter as depicted in Greek myths was considered the brother of Hades, Poseidon, etc." then I think that is fine but again would fall under a section either called Legacy or Influence on Hellenistic religion. As an aside I have Aita and Osiris be counterparts since they were both Underworld deities being syncretized to form Serapis (well Hades and Osiris were). Lacrossedeamon (talk) 16:20, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

Poseidon "is also the brother of Zeus and Hades". So no, they don't say 'Jupiter'... save that 'Zeus' is just a redirect to Jupiter, like 'Hera' is to 'Juno'. Sadelyrate (siniath) 16:24, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

That should probably be changed to "In Greek mythology Poseidon is depicted as the brother of Zeus and Hades". Lacrossedeamon (talk) 16:32, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

First of all guys, for future reference, please ensure that responses are never aligned with one another unless you guys are both replying to a third individual's message and not to one another. Subsequent replies should always use an additional indentation unless you guys personally feel that the messages are becoming too indented, in which case, refresh the indentation cycle by starting from the beginning again as I have just done.

I personally prefer the Isu and deity pages to be one and the same where the deity is only described in the lead in terms of being a deity if we only know it as a deity in the series (e.g. Sekhmet, Ra). If we know it as an Isu, then it makes sense for the Isu's deification to be described in a legacy section. I think this is more consistent with how we organize pages about characters and their legacies; hypothetically, if Desmond had chosen to allow the world to be destroyed and got deified, it would make more sense for his deification to be covered in a legacy section, no? This would also be consistent with how Wikipedia only has one article for Guan Yu and his deified version as the Chinese God of War.

I should point out that the page at Historical Jesus is not separate from the page at Jesus to distinguish the historical and religious Jesus, but rather Jesus and the historiographical study of Jesus and that it was most likely split off simply because it was too large to be kept on the article of "Jesus" any longer. Standard wiki procedure allows for the branching off of a subject into a different article for the sole reason that it has become too extensive.

In any case, the divine characters within Greek mythology which are based on the Isu can be mentioned in their own sections in an article under Greek mythology or Greek religion. However, I feel that Sadel's proposal to keep the separate is perfectly valid, and that this is ultimately only a matter of perspective. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 19:27, November 17, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, if at all possible, Isu and deity pages should be one and the same, IMO, with mythology being under legacy. As for the thing with Poseidon's page claiming him to be both Zeus' and Hades' brother, I've edited the page with the best, in-universe references to Poseidon being siblings with anyone (Pluto/Hades/Aita, in this case, as per ACII). — Zero-ELEC (talk) 02:37, November 18, 2018 (UTC)