Talk:Mary Read

Join the Ranks, Read!!

Well it's great to here Mary Read is actually confirmed in the game, but she was another female pirate besides Anne Bonny and was a partner in crime with Bonny and Calico Jack. So there we go. And even make her a member of the Assassins? Huh. Interesting.

M4 C-Corp (talk) 16:27, October 29, 2013 (UTC)

Article and image talk pages are not really the place for this. Perhaps try a forum. Stormbeast ♉ ^{The Helpful Place} 16:30, October 29, 2013 (UTC)

James Kidd

I knew the moment I heard Kidd talk, I was like "I don't believe your a man...." If he was 'brealy out of his teens' he'd be at least 15 16 & by then would of had a deep voice, plus, his (her? IT!) facial features looked too lady-like to me! (Harlan1500 (talk) 03:34, November 2, 2013 (UTC))

DLC

what would happen if mary read didnt die what would happen if she went with edward kenway will their be a dlc about her

I doubt they'll be going the "alternative reality" DLC route again, so canonically, Mary Read died in that prison. About what would happen in said hypothetical DLC and what wouldn't, I can't say, really (I'm not Ubisoft :s). The only DLC that's been confirmed so far is the one about Adéwalé.

Also, please sign your posts and use proper punctuation and grammar :) Crook ^{The Constantine District} 08:11, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

What happened to Adewale?

So I was reading a little about the Jackdaw and came across an article about Anne Bonny (sorry if I said it wrong or spelled it wrong). On her page it said that she was the second quatermaster of the Jackdaw. What happen to Adewale?TwixBreak (talk) 14:36, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

Adéwalé left Edward and the Jackdaw to join the Assassins, and Anne Bonny became the new quartermaster. Adéwalé's story will be continued in an upcoming DLC. Though, this is hardly the right place to ask, seeing as it is Mary Read's talk page. Next time you might want to make a forum or blog. Nesty ^{Contact me!} 14:45, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

Assassin creed black flag was amazing but it broke my heart when mary read died will their be a dlc were mary read was alive and she survied the prsion break and she went with edward 69.121.174.236 18:59, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry i didn't think of that! This is my first time ever having an account like this. But thanks for the info. I'm like to sequence seven on Ac4. Thanks for the info! TwixBreak (talk) 20:30, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

Mary Read DLC

Assassin creed black flag was amazing but it broke my heart when mary read died will their be a dlc were mary read was alive and she survied the prsion break and she went with edward 69.121.174.236 18:59, November 5, 2013 (UTC)69.121.174.236 19:00, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

No. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 19:02, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

Mary Read's child?

Okay, Mary Read wasn't hung due to being pregnant and subsequently died after giving birth. The child is currently unknown, but is there any backstory about who the father is? Could it be someone with 'the sense'?

Bartlmay (talk) 16:32, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

There's almost zero information on the father :P I think it's mentioned in-game that he was a young pirate that fought along with Anne and Mary when they were found by the British, though he was killed in the fight. That's basically all we have on him and all we know about Mary's child is that it's a boy. Anything else is most likely speculation :) Crook ^{The Constantine District} 16:47, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

I got to the point in-game that describes the father of Mary's child as the only non drunk Pirate left to fight. I did not catch that he was definately killed. I guess it's my conspiracy mind that says without a body there may not be a death. Thus I see a conspiracy that the father may be Templar plant. When Edward makes his first visit to Tulum Mary is there and tells  Ah Tabai that Edwrd has the sense. This tells me that she has the sense. This in turn tells me that the child of Mary would probably have the sense. The child that was taken away by the British while Mary was giving birth in prison. (Listen as you approach the last room of cells that Mary and Anne are in.) Sorry I can get caught up in backstories. Bartlmay (talk) 02:57, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

It's mentioned somewhere that the unknown guy who helped fight with Read and Bonny was Flemish, and that Bonny herself mentioned it was him who Read had romantic interest in. Or something, I haven't played Black Flag much since completing it. Slate Vesper (talk) 20:29, November 20, 2013 (UTC)

I'm 99% sure the pirate was killed in combat (Anne Bonny says so at one point), so the conspiracy theories really don't make that much sense. It's looking for things that aren't there, like people claiming Haytham was supposedly the child of Edward and Mary (the dates don't match up) :/ Crook ^{The Constantine District} 21:22, November 20, 2013 (UTC)

This video is a pretty good reference--at 6:36 Edward and Anne have their conversation about the father of Mary's child, and Anne confirms who it was and that he died when she and Mary were captured. She doesn't really go into their relationship, though.

(To be honest, I actually think that Haytham being Edward and Mary's kid would have been perfect given the Templar-related plot developments at the trial--that is, if it wouldn't have created a plot hole big enough to sail a galleon through by having Edward's story continue after Haytham's conception. Eh, can't have it all.)

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 08:31, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

The father of Mary's child was indeed the man who fought, and died, alongside Mary and Anne. With regards to people's speculation that either Mary or -more likely - Anne is the father mother of Haytham, that has already been denied by the developers. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 09:33, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

The father of Haytham, you say? Now that would've been interesting . . . --Molotov.cockroach (talk) 10:02, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 09:19, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Picture

I believe we should use a picture of her "dressed" as James Kidd. That's the way she dressed for most of her life in the Carribbean, as well as most of the game. It's the most accurate portrayal of her, rather than when she dressed as a woman for 5 minutes of the game (or 10, if you include when she was forced to at the end of the game, which I wouldn't). LordSchmee (talk) 09:39, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. First of all, it isn't the way she was dressed for most of her life in the Carribbean, as evidenced when Edward asks "Your name is not James, is it?" and she answers with "Not most days." Furthermore, this is her actual self, not the person she pretends to be, thus the female persona has preference over the male persona. Nesty ^{Contact me!} 09:54, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Kidd is just a persona. The article is about the actual character, and the image should relect that. --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 09:55, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

The "not most days" came across more as a joke. If you know anything about Mary Read as a person you'll know that she was dressed as a boy from WAY younger than when she was in the game. Like, from childhood. So she was actually more male than she was female, and I believe this article should reflect that. As for it being about the "actual character" - that doesn't change my point any. Mary Read, as a person, dressed as a male for most of her life. Various biographies confirm this. It was part of her personality (the whole James Kidd thing was simply added for the game).

EDIT: She actually took over her brother's life early in childhood when he died. She continued being male through her teenage years and into her adult life. She joined the Dutch military as a male, served there for a long time, then joined the pirates in the West Indies as a male. Only two people ever found out she was female, and she only ever revealed herself as female exactly one time in her life - her trial, where she was forced to appear as a woman.

To call that "just a persona" is as ignorant as claiming that a transgendered person should be referred to as their biological sex.

So, really, her FEMALE appearance is a persona - one that she does not often use. Her male appearance is her true appearance, the one she utilises in her day to day life. She only appears female (in the game) to trick people. She never appeared female IRL 'til her trial.

And if nothing else there definitely should be an image for both. James should be the main image (for the reasons stated above) and the image of her dressed as a female should be in the gallery, or the main body. LordSchmee (talk) 12:08, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

"pl. personas The role that one assumes or displays in public or society; one's public image or personality, as distinguished from the inner self."

This literal definition points to "James Kidd" as the persona, the fake identity that is displayed in public. "Mary Read" is the actual, true person, which should take precedence over any identities she may have assumed throughout her life. It doesn't matter that she may have spent more time in the role of James Kidd, at the end of the day, she is Mary Read and plays James Kidd.

Also, Mary Read revealed herself to be female a lot earlier than her trial. She revealed herself to Edward when going after Laurens Prins. After said mission is done, she mentions she is not James Kidd "on most days", and goes by Mary Read to "them I call friends" (whoever that may be, the Assassins maybe?). She later befriends Anne Bonny and though she keeps up the pretense for a while, Anne Bonny eventually figures out Mary's true gender. Mary subsequently revealed her gender to Jack Rackham, who was too dim-witted to see through the disguise and believed Mary, as James, was attempting to woo Anne away from him.

I do agree there should be an image in the gallery depicting Kidd, but Mary Read should definitely be the main image. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 21:59, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'm on the fence on this one. Since this is the Assassin's Creed wiki, we have to abide by what the canon of the series shows, and it shows Mary revealing her identity and dressing as a woman long before her trial. It's also clear that, while she does dress as Kidd frequently, she does not regard this alone as her true self. The fact that she presents herself as female to those she trusts (including Edward, Anne, and Ah Tabai) and does not ask them to respect the Kidd identity as her true one speaks to that.

On the other hand, Mary does appear most frequently in the Kidd get-up, and despite the name, she really doesn't seem to separate the two in terms of her identity. She doesn't change anything about her behavior or attitudes between the two, it's just that she assumes a psuedonym and encourages the belief that she's a man sometimes. So, effectively, any picture of Kidd is a picture of Mary, so just in terms of appearance frequency I feel like a render of her in her masculine attire would probably be better.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 08:27, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

I asked Darby himself for some input, given that he wrote the character and studied the real Mary intimately (you know, Word of God and all that):

https://twitter.com/DarbyMcDevitt/status/404735284015022080

LordSchmee (talk) 09:12, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Mary is a woman. She has a female body. For all intends and purposes she *is* a woman. That is her true identity, the name given to her by parents. Therefore, that is her "true selve." It doesn't matter how we see her most often, how she is seen last in the game, or what the writers think. She *is* a woman. Nesty ^{Contact me!} 11:21, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Nes, you're arguing with a guy that was foaming at the mouth and denying Aveline DLC was out for the PC version of Black Flag, even when he was presented with clear proof that stated otherwise. It's not worth it. --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 11:48, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

You're exaggerating, Kain. For all he knew, you edited that image to win the argument. A website would've been "clear proof". Crook ^{The Constantine District} 11:54, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Anywho, let's not bash individual users for having a different opinion than the majority. But, since the majority chose this image, it stays, and that pretty much ends this discussion. Nesty ^{Contact me!} 11:56, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Frankly, I think the "Mary Read" image is a poor substitute for the much higher-quality "James Kidd" picture, but meh. At the end of the day, "James Kidd" is nothing more than an alias adopted by Mary to disguise herself; it's not like she magically changed sex and became a completely different individual each time she put on the bandanna (or he took it off); all it is is a change of clothes.

I think we should stick with our customs and go for the highest quality picture we have available. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 12:19, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Where's this HQ image you speak of? --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 12:26, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

"Mary is a woman and it's the name her parents gave her" is no different than saying "transgendered individuals should only be referred to as their birth gender".

Also, Mary's own mother actually "changed" her gender and her name during childhood. So if you wanna go by that argument...

And, honestly I think Word of God means more than the opinions of some fans, does it not? Darby said we should use James Kidd as the main image, and I'm inclined to agree with Word of God more than anyone else, really.

Also "it's not like she just put on a bandana and became another individual". You're right. When she was dressed as James, she was her TRUE self. She was free to be who she wanted to be. When she dressed as a female, she did it ONLY to deceive people (except when she was forced to during her trial). That alone should be proof enough that the true persona, the real Mary Read, was her masculinely-dressed persona.

And as for the whole PC Aveline thing (which was frankly unprofessional and off topic, Kain): yes, it very well could've been an edited image. It could have been remnants of a file that no longer existed in the game. And most importantly, all online sources stated that it was Sony exclusive. So yes, I was deservingly sceptical about your one-screenshot proof. Regardless, that topic wasn't relevant for Mary Read's talk page, and I'd appreciate you not cluttering up the discussion with childish asides and snide remarks. LordSchmee (talk) 12:56, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Eugh, I thought we had a HQ pic of "James Kidd", but since we don't, I think it's best we stick with the current image. LordSchmee, Darby is not God; his personal opinion does not dictate anything on here. You're acting like James Kidd and Mary Read are two entirely different people, when they're not; they're the same person. Simply, it boils down to this, we will use whichever image is decided upon by the community, that may be an image of Mary dressed as a man, or it may not.

Also, no. One person's opinion does not mean more than that of any other fan, no matter who they are. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 13:49, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Darby said he -thinks- we should use it. Emphasis on think. He didn't come down with a court order and forced us to change it. It's just his expressed opinion. --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 14:13, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod

And yes, the opinion of the writer does mean more than the opinion of a group of fans. If, for example, all the fans decided that Desmond wasn't actually dead, does that mean he isn't and they need to write a new game where he springs back to life? No. It doesn't. Because on matters relating to Assassin's Creed, the writer takes precedence.

Not that I think you're going to listen, of course. You're too stubborn in your beliefs to care about frivalous things like the creator's opinion.

And of course he's not coming down with a court order. It's a wiki page, nothing more. It doesn't mean enough to him to force you to change it. It does, however, show that he believes you should use the image of James Kidd as her main image and in his infinite knowledge of the character (as well as his intricate knowledge of the real woman gained from months of research), arguing AGAINST his logic is quite stupid.

This is my final post here. I don't think you're going to stop being stubborn and actually change things. However I would be pleasantly surprised to find that the moderators actually took the writer's opinion into account when making decisions. LordSchmee (talk) 15:21, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Good, that means this discussion is now finished. I would kindly request people not to post any more additions to this discussion without a very valid reason, lest it be revived and rehashed all over again. Nesty ^{Contact me!} 15:28, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'd also request kindly that people on the wiki start applying logic to their decisions rather than "what they want the most" or "what they decided first". (The discussion is over, I'm not rekindling it. Merely making an observation about the state of the wiki in general.) LordSchmee (talk) 15:30, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'm quite sure you said you weren't going to post another comment, rather than just nine minutes after your last one. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 16:11, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Final post regarding the topic, yes. My post above was not regarding that specific topic, but the wiki on the whole. LordSchmee (talk) 17:09, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

In that case, if you hate it here so much, why do you remain? Mary is a woman, she confessed that to Edward under threat of "unmanning" him, so I fail to see how she identifies herself as a man if you want to bring transgender identity into it. Now, kindly refrain from slagging us off, because if you continue, you won't be coming back unless you take an interim break. Slate Vesper (talk) 17:14, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

She confesser her sex to him, yes (which is distinctly different from gender). The fact she did so under threat of "unmanning" him further proves my point that she doesn't feel comfortable being identified as a woman (and in real life, as I mentioned before, had not done so at all since childhood). Also, my post was only regarding specific persons, and in no way reflects my opinion of the entire moderative team. As for why I remain, it's simple - I'm a fan of the series, and a fan of the character. And also, I guess, a fan of the lady herself. Have been for years. LordSchmee (talk) 17:22, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

How exactly does it prove that? Yeah, she did dress as a man, but that was to do with the discrimination in roles society deemed for men, as was common during those times. She wouldn't likely have had sex with a man and got herself pregnant to escape execution if she consciously identified herself as male. The very fact that she did brings her more in line with a woman who diguised her sex for opportunity's sake rather than having a desire to express herself as the opposite sex. Slate Vesper (talk) 17:27, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Mary Read says to Jack Rackham at one point "Lad (the 'lad' refers to herself, because Jack was still unaware of her gender at this point). That's the last thing you should be calling me." Is this not representative of what she considers herself to be, gender-wise? I think you're being overly political correct in comparing her to a transgender person.

This is my opinion, it's not what I "want the most" or what "was first", it's what I believe to be correct in the context of the story. I never got the vibe that Mary Read was a persona, rather the opposite, that James Kidd was an identity she assumed to let her do more, because it was more convenient. But that does that make the James Kidd persona more valid, more real than the Mary Read one? Not to me. And since she isn't transgender, we should focus on what she is, not what she pretended to be :s Anyways, I have a decent render of Mary, we could use that one? Crook ^{The Constantine District} 17:27, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Not really. Again, if you look back at her history it has nothing to do with her pirate life. She was warped by her mother at a young age, a very young age. She lived as a male from childhood through to adulthood. She only ever revealed her sex, reluctantly, upon fear of death. And if you see how she acts when she isn't deceiving people (even when dressed as a woman) she acts far more like a male than a female (case in point - the unmanning line). That is very definitely a male gender identity.

On the topic of the Mary render, however... dear god, yes. Anything is an improvement on the current image. LordSchmee (talk) 17:35, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Mary is not a man, nor does she consider herself to be one. Just because her mother dressed her in men's clothing, it does not mean that Mary herself actually wants to be a guy. She does want to pose as a man for disguise's sake, yes, but she does not believe herself to be one, and she reveals her true sex when it is more convenient for her to be a woman. Also, while she may have a more masculine attitude, that in of itself does not make her a man. Same for why some men can act feminine, but aren't gay or secretly longing to be a woman. It all comes down to the Anima and the Animus psyche, not gender issues.

Also, if she was truly scared of dying when not in her male guise, why did she go on a pirating spree with Anne Bonny? She doesn't regret it at all, so that in of itself is evidence that she is not transgender, more that she picks an identity dependant on whim. To end this, Mary is a great actress, not a man trapped in a woman's body. Slate Vesper (talk) 17:46, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

HQ James Kidd image

This is not meant to add to the previous conversation, just a request prompted by it: can anyone get a render or otherwise high quality image of Mary's James Kidd appearance for the gallery? 

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 16:14, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Kain, probably. --Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 16:16, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

We have plenty of memory images of her Kidd persona now. You can caption one of your choosing apropriately. --Kainzorus Prime ^{Walkie-talkie} 16:25, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

Whoops, added a few more than one. I think I got it right (third times the charm?) but if there's any issues, do let me know.

Molotov.cockroach (talk) 16:55, November 25, 2013 (UTC)