Talk:Shanghai Rite of the Templar Order

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Name

I've not read Assassin's Creed Templars Volume 1: Black Cross, but the article currently states that this particular rite was known as the "Shanghai Rite" during the events of this medium. If that is the case, why is the article entitled with a conjectural name when we have a canon name available to use instead? --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 22:34, May 2, 2019 (UTC)

It appears that I was the one who originally added the mention of the canonical name along with a note explaining the choice to retain the conjectural name as the title of the article. I have little recollection of this, and I don't think my note, which was subsequently removed by Sima, was specific enough as to the reasoning. Although Shanghai as a settlement under different names seemed to have existed for at least a millennium, it was at most a little known town or village for most of its history. It really does not enter history until the late 19th or early 20th century when its development exploded. Hence, there is reason to presume that it would not have been the name of the Chinese Templars for any period prior to the late 19th century.

With that having been said, I agree that the canonical name should always be used over a conjectural one. I'm not sure why at the time I opted to keep it at "Chinese Rite". I might have chosen to do so because I saw it as the safer option; I might have found it exceedingly difficult to introduce the subject as the Shanghai Rite then somehow explain somewhere that name would almost certainly be anachronistic for any period prior to the time period of Black Cross. Finally, I might have hesitated because I wasn't (and still am not) entirely sure that the name Chinese Rite is conjectural or not. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 00:42, May 3, 2019 (UTC)

So you're not objecting to me moving the article, then? --Jasca Ducato (talk | contributions) 08:13, May 3, 2019 (UTC)

You can move it. Not sure how best to word the lead though. I'm hesitant to even assume that the Rite is called the Shanghai Rite in the 21st century. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 07:27, May 4, 2019 (UTC)

Reviving this. If you are still unsure whether Shanghai would be the right name for the group in the modern day, could we move it back to the Chinese Rite, especially in light of more recent developments regarding the Golden Turtles and An Lushan in Dynasty? – Darman (talk) 21:50, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Until a source expressly gives the name "Chinese Rite", we cannot do this. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 01:40, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Then how would you recommend we deal with the Ancients/Templars' influence before Shanghai came to prominence, as you mentioned above? Just...simply say that they moved their base of operations as the dynasties changed? – Darman (talk) 06:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not a relevant issue at all. "Shanghai Rite of the Templar Order" is being used as the article title because it is a canonically verified name. The fact that this is the title of the article doesn't necessarily mean that the Templars in China were known by this name through their entire history. That the article for the Colonial/American Rite is at "American Rite of the Templar Order" doesn't mean it was known by the name "American Rite" for all of its history. It's just its most recently known name. In this case, per sourcing policy, we need a canonical source for the name "Chinese Rite" even though we can infer it would probably be in use, or otherwise it would technically be a conjectural name. Naming policy is clear that canonical name supersedes conjectural names. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 07:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Also by the way, of course the Templars were based elsewhere before Shanghai came to prominence. The Chinese Assassins weren't known as the Beijing Brotherhood through all of its history either. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 07:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)