Board Thread:Wiki discussion/@comment-18014300-20200504004330/@comment-18014300-20200504232031

Wow I'm really amazed at how fruitful and extensive this discussion was. Everyone provided some insightful thoughts on this matter. Zero's idea to continue referring to Iltani, Darius, etc. as Assassins is a more radical one, but one that I actually support as well. I lacked the boldness to consider that. It was really perceptive of you when you brought up some examples on Discord about how our citations to Assassin's Creed: Origins and other recent sources for information about the proto-Assassins are all wrong. I myself was behind some of those citations, but only because I was trying to work with that implied retcon. These examples of incorrect citations that Zero presented makes me wonder how well the terms proto-Assassin and proto-Templar can be substantiated or were they our own invention which The Essential Guide sort of copied. If so, this is something we also really need to consider.

Sima also brought up some good points to keep in mind that I had missed, and Sadel is right that there is that slight possibility that Bayek didn't necessarily found the Assassins but just the Creed. I was kind of weighing that too, but I suppose I just think that it is mostly clear what Ubisoft had intended.

I personally have my doubts that Kassandra is a proto-Assassin, but her designation as such in The Essential Guide alongside some of the points RShepherd brought up might indicate that the proto- in proto-Assassin can be used in the same sense as those examples I brought up which I've encountered in my studies: proto-feminist, proto-socialist, proto-liberal, etc. for individuals and groups who had similar ideas but did not directly influence the modern ideology. On the other hand, I am also inclined to agree with Cris that not every group who has fought for liberty or free will is a proto-Assassin. I think the Assassins' beliefs are more particular than that, and certainly, not every freedom fighter would agree with them. It does not help that I still have difficulty understanding what kind of person Kassandra truly is or what her philosophy is. She fought for her family, but did she really share in convictions alikes the Assassins? I only wish that Ubisoft was more clear on these things.

If you guys don't mind continuing this discussion further, I would like to say that I would endorse both my proposal and Zero's bolder one. If there isn't enough vocal support for Zero's (to be honest, I find that most editors usually leave the discussion after one post :P), then we should default to my proposal to draw the line of using "Assassins" with the Hidden Ones.

It looks like the consensus is, at the very least:

1. to treat Hidden Ones as Assassins
2. to treat the Order of the Ancients as Templars

Some leftover questions:

1. Should we merge Hidden Ones with the Assassins article and OotA with the Templars article? (brought up by Sima) I'm not sure but we do currently have three pages covering the Hidden Ones: Hidden Ones, Egyptian Brotherhood of Assassins, and Assassins.
2. Related: Is the name "Hidden Ones" limited only to the Egyptian and Roman branches? (brought up by Lacrosse) I don't think we can know this until the release of Valhalla, but what would we do until then?
3. Should the pages Artabanus' group and Iltani's Order be renamed to Persian Brotherhood and Babylonian Brotherhood respectively? Sima brought up good counter-point that those two names have disappeared from tEG 2.0. Even so, the names we have are still conjectural compared to ones which have been canonical. We can take this question to those pages' talk pages if that would be better organization for this discussion.
4. So we should be categorizing Kassandra as a proto-Assassin?
5. Is Zero's proposal preferable to anyone? (As I said I would support it as well as an alternative)