Assassin's Creed Wiki:General Archives/On the Precursor box

Original title for the thread: So since the fact is clear that there is indeed only one precursor box when will the wikia get updated?

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Qwert1225 on 29/07/2017:

So since the fact is clear that there is indeed only one precursor box when will the wikia get updated?

In a recent AMA on reddit,Aymar,the head of content of AC confirmed that the box that was given to Shao by Ezio and Shay's box is indeed the same.

https://www.reddit.com/r/assassinscreed/comments/60pj33/i_am_aymar_azaizia_head_of_content_for_assassins/df8cjka/?context=10000

(Edited by Qwert1225)

Sol Pacificus on 29/07/2017:

I thank you for bringing this up; another editor had as well, but he had not provided a link.

I don't know how I missed that the box being in William Sleeman's hands in Chronicles: India doesn't necessarily contradict the account in Freedom Cry and Rogue given that those two games fit snugly in betweenChronicles: China and Chronicles: India.

The fact is actually not as clear as you might think as multiple sources contradict one another on this matter. Although it makes far more sense in the continuity for there to have been only one Precursor box, as the War Letters of Rogue even report that Shao Jun's box passed into the West Indies, the lead writer of that game himself affirmed that Ezio's box is different from that of Shay. Since Rogue is notorious for derailing AC lore (imho), and Aymar is the head of content, I would trust Aymar's word far more, given that it's more recent. However, there is an additional complication. The reference book Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide expressly describes that there are two boxes. In the entry "Precursor Boxes" (note the plural) it states "Two confirmed Precursor Boxes exist; one is currently in possession of Álvaro Gramática while the location of the other is unknown".

I would much prefer the interpretation that there is only one box, but this is convoluted enough we would need to hold a thorough discussion on it first. For future reference, this could be better presented in the actual talk page for "Precursor boxes though I suppose asking it here would attract more attention to the issue.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Qwert1225 on 29/07/2017:

Thank you for your prompt response! Yes I do agree with you on the fact there are quite infact lore inconsistencies here and there stating whether or not there is one or multiple precursor boxes where one "fact" contradicts the other.

Hopefully this gets cleared out soon enough cause Im pretty damn confused right now haha.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Sol Pacificus on 29/07/2017:

PRECURSOR BOXES

"Precursor Boxes are artifacts used in conjunction with other Pieces of Eden to trigger certain effects. When activated, boxes have been known to imprint memories onto users, as well as decipher Precursor writing and project holograms of maps. In the place of a Piece of Eden to power a box, electricity/lightning has been used to open/activate Precursor Boxes, although the risk of damaging them exists if this method is used. Two confirmed Precursor Boxes exist; one is currently in possession of Álvaro Gramática, while the location of the other is unknown.

Ezio gave a Precursor Box to Shao Jun, telling her to open it only as a last resort. This box later surfaced in the possession of the Russian Imperial family; when unexpectedly activated by the Shard of Eden carried by the Assassin Nikolai Orelov, it imprinted Shao Jun's memories onto Anastasia Romanov." — Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide Chapter 2: The Precursor Civilization, pg. 29

This is just for reference in case people want to know exactly what this source says of the boxes and how we might reconcile the inconsistency.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Qwert1225 on 30/07/2017:

soooo 2 boxes confirmed? :0

its quite odd actually that Aymar said only one box.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Cristophorus35 on 30/07/2017:

I always wondered... Why are the people responsible of the AC lore not committed to it as we fans are? I mean, thanks to pages like the wikia we can handle this kind of things. Why can't they? Having a lot of resources, videos, notebooks and stuff like that, they should do it without problem :/.

Of course, I'm not talking of only create stories but also taking care of its coherence and cohesion.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Qwert1225 on 31/07/2017:

lmao true that

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

The Wikia Editor on 02/08/2017:

I'm not sure whether the War Letters can really be used to argue that there is only one box. John Harrison's letter was clearly talking about a box that, as far as he knew, had been in the Chinese Brotherhood's possession for a up to a century after Shao Jun's death and may have been secretly sent by them to Acapulco.

This description doesn't really match Shay's box, which had been stolen from the Templars by Adéwalé in 1735, seven years before Harrison wrote the letter. Harrison was clearly talking about a box that hadn't been in the Templar's possession and whose potential whereabouts in the West Indies were uncertain at best.

It's possible that Ezio's box was retrieved by the Chinese Brotherhood sometime shortly after the death of Zhang Yong and eventually ended up in Francis Cotton's possession by 1839.

Harrison's letter present a challenge to the interpretation that there is only one box. Because, if that was the case, Harrison would certainly have mentioned how the Templars had the box in their possession and then lost it to the Assassins only seven years before he wrote his letter.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Sol Pacificus on 02/08/2017:

Wow thanks for pointing out this crucial detail that I had somehow missed. I forgot that Adéwalé had seized the box from the Templars in 1735. However, do you think it's possible that the Templars had just found the box and taken it when they were intercepted by Adéwalé? If so, it may mean that this Templar crew simply never managed to report finding the box to the other Templars, including the British Rite.

It reminds me of how a lot of fans assume that the Assassins should have known that Vendredi triggered an earthquake when because of Vendredi's death, they never even knew if he had found the site or not before the earthquake hit. There's always the possibility of an agent of either faction dying before he could report the findings or results of his mission to his superiors.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

The Wikia Editor on 03/08/2017:

From what little we're told of Shay's box, it had been in the possession of the Parisian Rite, no mention is made of how long they had it, and they sent it to Saint-Dominigue in 1735, to be delivered to Bastienne Joséphe. Although Adéwalé intercepted the box, he did eventually give it to Bastienne in 1737. We're not told how long she had it, but it eventualy ended up in the hands of François Mackandal by 1751.

I suppose it's possible that the Parisian Rite never told the British Rite about the box and it's location.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Sol Pacificus on 03/08/2017:

I don't remember where it is said that the box was in the possession of the Parisian Rite for a while.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

The Wikia Editor on 03/08/2017:

I believe it was made reasonably clear that the Templar Admiral was delivering the package on behalf of the Templars in France. The Admiral was even referred to as an "errand boy".

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Qwert1225 on 03/08/2017:

oh so its only one box :0

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

The Wikia Editor on 03/08/2017:

Actually no, Harrison's letter indicates that he either doesn't know about or is otherwise unconcerned with the box stolen by Adéwalé. The former suggests that the Templars who tried to send it to Saint-Dominigue didn't tell the British Rite about it, the latter suggests that Harrison is referring to a different box altogether.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Sol Pacificus on 03/08/2017:

Hm, I still think that that's kind of an assumption, even if fairly reasonable. They could've been part of a group of French Templars who just seized it from the Assassins, packaged it in a parcel from their camp or temporary base, then were sending it to Saint-Dominigue.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

The Wikia Editor on 03/08/2017:

As I mentioned on the Precursor boxes talk page, the main point of contention is whether or not Harrison was aware of the incident with the box and, if he was, why he didn't mention it. I'll copy what I wrote there:

"John Harrison's letter in Rogue suggests that he doesn't know about or is otherwise unconcerned with the box that was stoled by Adéwalé in 1735. The Templars' plan to send the box to Saint-Dominigue was shown to have been planned out ahead of time, as the Assassins knew when the box was due to arrive, who was transporting it and who was meant to receive it.

If there is only one box, and Harrison didn't known about it, it suggests that the Templars transporting it hadn't informed the British Rite. If Harrison did know about it, then one has to wonder why he didn't mention it in his letter and search for it in Saint-Dominigue, where, at the time he wrote the letter in 1742, it was either in possession of Bastienne Joséphe (the original intended recipient) or François Mackandal, the Mentor of the Saint-Dominigue Brotherhood.

If there are two boxes, then one can interpret Harrison's search for Ezio's box as an attempt to replace the one they lost to the Assassins in 1735, which sounds pretty reasonable to me."

The main source for this confusion is probably because Chronicles makes it seem as though the Templars got their hands on the box when Zhang Yong sent it out of China in 1532 and still had it by 1839, with nothing to suggest that they had lost it in the interim. Harrison's letter in Rogue, on the other hand, states that the Chinese Brotherhood still had the box up to a century after Shao Jun's death and then sent it out of China via the Manila Galleons bound for Acapulco, with the Templars having no idea where it was. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Templars found Ezio's box sometime after 1742, with Francis Cotton having it in his possession by 1839.

At the moment, the Precursor boxes article assumes that Ezio's box was still in the Templars' possession in 1742, with Harrison somehow being unaware of that fact. However, unless there is a line of dialogue in Chronicles: India that explicitly suggests this, I believe it makes more sense to assume that the Chinese Brotherhood ultimately managed to retrieve the box and that, as of 1742, the Templars had neither of the two boxes in their possession.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Sol Pacificus on 03/08/2017:

My point is of contention is specifically only about assuming that the French Rite had this box for a long time. That the Assassins knew when the box was due to arrive, who was transporting it, and who was meant to receive it does not mean that the box came from France or that either side had advanced preparation and planning. The Assassins could've known such intel specifically because the box had just been stolen from them, and they were tracking it. In other words, I don't think there is strong enough evidence from the circumstances that the box was in the French Rite's possession for a long time, and this is a possible explanation why neither the French Rite nor British Rite had known about it.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

The Wikia Editor on 04/08/2017:

To be fair, I was never suggesting that they had it for a long time, in fact, I specifically said that "no mention is made of how long they had it".

My main point was that, if we go purely by what Chronicles: China and Chronicles: India show us, then it seems as if the Templars had Ezio's box in their possession from 1532 to 1839 without ever losing it in the interim. However, if we account for Harrison's letter, then it seems that, in 1742, the Templars had neither box in their possession.

I admit that it's possible that the whole operation with the box in 1735 was performed quickly by an isolated Templar group who failed to inform the other Rites about their discovery/possible theft of the box. I personally think a more likely explanation is that Ezio's box was indeed retrieved by the Chinese Brotherhood within Shao Jun's lifetime, as Harrison's letter doesn't actually say that Shao Jun had the entire time, only that the Chinese Brotherhood had it at the time of her death and continued having it in their possession for up to a century afterwards.

Of course, it's also possible that Harrison merely though that there were two boxes, without realizing that there was only one.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Qwert1225 on 04/08/2017:

To be honest,I am just going with the "one box theory" as of now cause Aymar said so :/

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Qwert1225 on 06/08/2017:

I GOT AN UPDATE https://twitter.com/AymarMtl/status/894279606496317440">https://twitter.com/AymarMtl/status/894279606496317440

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Cristophorus35 on 07/08/2017:

When I saw the ending of ACChronicles: Russia, I thought that the Templar had both boxes (Shay's and Ezio's). I can almost swear it was like that.

Oh well. At least, we have a glimpse of the answer.

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Qwert1225 on 07/08/2017:

true

(Edited by Lacrossedeamon)

Lacrossedeamon on 01/07/2024:

Sorry for necroing just getting rid of markup text that didn't carry over with fandom moved threads to forums. Really screwed the pooch.