User talk:Sol Pacificus

Welcome to the Order, Sol Pacificus!

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Feel free to contact me on my talkpage if you need anything. Master Sima Yi (talk) 12:39, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Sandbox

Might I suggest this if you plan on doing an article revamp. It insures that all edits, between now and when you take the template down, are done by you alone. Stormbeast ♉ ^{The Helpful Place} 06:33, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I appreciate your suggestion though excuse my ignorance, I must confess that I'm confused as to how a sandbox works and whether it is necessary and/or mandatory. Thanks! Sol Pacificus (talk) 08:26, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

To quote a friend: "It's best to put into mainspace when it's good and ready, rather than half-done" and "it stops random people from screwing up plans." As to how it works, you just open the link I posted, create it, and copy the code from your project into your sandbox. It's not mandatory, but it is recommended. Stormbeast ♉ ^{The Helpful Place} 16:39, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

Reverted Edit

Hi, as for the grammatical errors that may have been in my Altair page edit there was nothing wrong with the facts I provided as it came from canonical sources. I suggest leaving my edit alone as all the facts deserve to be posted on a informative web page such as this. If I don't hear a response from you explaining yourself I will re-edit the page (and be mindful of the grammar) Thank you.ConmanWAR (talk) 04:37, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Hey! Thanks for bringing it up with me as I myself was a bit concerned I was too hasty. So here's my explanation:

I noticed that on the Assassins article you modified a sentence with a similar statement, that Altaïr decisively changed the direction of the Assassins towards the goal of absolute freedom. While Altaïr was indeed responsible for a great reformation of the brotherhood, I fear that such a statement is far too generalized. For one thing, we know that the Assassins predated Al-Mualim in other parts of the world for centuries (probably originating with Abel by the way), and the Roman brotherhood called themselves the Circles of Liberals which implied that they already believed in freedom and liberty to some degree. Although the Levantine Assassins definitely advocated strict obedience to their Mentor, which was abolished by Altaïr, it is actually not known with exactness how much of the ethos of free will already existed before Altaïr's reforms. This is because even in Assassin's Creed I, they talked of "freeing the minds of men" and that "peace must be learned, rather than forced."
Most especially, however, it is a misconception that the Assassins believe in absolute freedom as their highest goal. Notice that in the sentence you modified in the Assassins article, it was specifically worded to note that the Assassins came to emphasize liberty more throughout the centuries, until Haytham accused them of no longer believing in peace, just freedom. Beyond this accusation by Haytham and the transgressions against the Assassin code in Rogue by the Assassins in that game, this has never been substantiated, and even in 1794, at the end of Unity, Arno repeats this line:

"The Creed of the Assassin Brotherhood teaches us that nothing is forbidden to us. Once, I thought that meant we were free to do as we would. To pursue our ideals, no matter the cost. I understand now. Not a grant of permission, the Creed is a warning. Ideals too easily give way to dogma. Dogma becomes fanaticism. No higher power sits in judgment of us. No supreme being watches to punish us for our sins. In the end, only we ourselves can guard against our obsessions. Only we can decide whether the road we walk carries too high a toll."

―Arno Dorian

The fact that the conflict between the Assassins and Templars is simplified as freedom vs. order is a prevailing misconception among characters in the story, and fans themselves, to the point it's almost like a hidden, overarching theme. There are other lines given by Mary Reed, Altaïr, etc. which I can provide if you want.
In brief, Assassins emphasized liberty and freedom more as we moved closer to modern times. This trajectory began with Altaïr's reforms, but we should be careful of proclaiming it happened outright from him as he himself repudiated that the Creed meant freedom simply and continued talking about peace being a goal in his writings. Ezio's goal in the games is shown to be not freedom as an ends, but social justice, freeing the cities from corruption, but not necessarily freedom per se. The transition seems to have been a gradual process.
We should make a distinction between free will and freedom, however. Free will, a component of liberty, was probably always endorsed by Assassins from the very beginning, as far back as Abel, which was another problem with your edit that it began with Altaïr. Free will and/or freedom as a main goal, with peace no longer a goal (as your edit implied), simplifies the goals of the Assassins too much. We see even in the French Revolution, that the Assassins didn't fight for freedom for freedom's sake, and fought against the anarchic revolutionaries.
I personally thought that your edit didn't necessarily mean that the Assassins only cared about freedom, period, but it was far too general of a statement, such that that could easily be construed as the meaning.
This has become a long explanation so here I will try to list out the factual errors:

1. Free will likely had always been a core tenet of the Assassins, going back to the Roman era, the Qin era, etc. evident by the name "Circle of Liberals." It did not begin with Altaïr's reforms.
2. In spite of this, the Assassins did not make free will or freedom the one supreme goal, nor did they starting from Altaïr. There has always been many other components of their goals, and it's too bold of a claim, especially in light of how many characters have said that freedom being the only meaning of the Assassin is a misconception.
3. Even if the Assassins came to emphasize freedom/free will more after Altaïr, it is more likely that it was a gradual process (and it's actually possible that this was only an isolated case in the American colonies).
4. Your edit implies that the Assassins no longer fought for peace or the end of tyranny (because of their shifting towards free will more), that this shift, if it did occur, sacrificed the goal of peace or the goal of ending tyranny is almost certainly untrue (esp. since for the freedom-fighter, ending tyranny and freedom goes hand in hand).

That only covers the factual errors. The citation error is the format of your referencing, though I don't really know how to explain it as I just follow the format, and I'm not the best with coding. More notably though, I pay very close attention to each and every last line in every game, and I don't recall Rogue actually explicitly saying that Altaïr's reforms shifted the Assassins to free will as the main goal. It's already dubious if the Assassins in Rogue actually believed in freedom as an ends (in all technicality, while their actions implied it, their intentions were never explained), but where was the specific statement that Altaïr made this specific revolutionary change of making freedom as a goal above everything else they stood for? I would've asked you first instead in case I really just missed it, but because of the multiple issues of the edit, I chose to revert it entirely.

I would very much have tried to modify it accordingly instead rather than reverting it outright, but the deciding reason was that the article is a featured article, so I assumed the community already considered it to be in a "perfect state". Because of that, I would be very wary of editing it, though I'm not sure what's the policy around editing featured articles. Your edit was far too general of a statement, and could easily lead to the common simplified understanding of the Assassin vs. Templar conflict as freedom vs. order, when it is far deeper than that. It implied that Altaïr's reforms instantly brought about that shift, when it is more likely gradual (or even never happened and was an isolated case in the American colonies). Because it was such a contentious statement, I decided that even if I modified it, it might still be incorrect, and I didn't want to mess with that state of a featured article.

I apologize if my reversion seemed capricious. I myself was very concerned it wasn't the best call and later decided I should've just waited for a more experienced user to deal with it. I also greatly appreciate you being so prompt in checking in with me about it. :) However, my points about why I think the edit is flawed stands. I have no opinion about the latter line about Altaïr changing the order to allow women into the brotherhood, as I do not have the encyclopedia and cannot corroborate whether this is true or not. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 06:41, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Hello again, I thank you deeply for getting back in touch with me and offered me a valent reason as to why you made the edit. While you offer a very intelligent and deep reason I must counter some things. The first being the freedom debate. When you bring up the Liberals argument the term does not equal liberty. Liberal by definition is "open to new behaviour or opinions and willing to discard traditional values" which the term for the Roman Brotherhood was stated through not liberty. Furthermore, in AC1 when being lectured by Al-Mualim he says "do you remember what the Assassins fight for" in which Altair responds with "peace in all things" so this is saying the Assassins didn't have the goal of fighting for free will prior to Altair especially since the targets that Altair was forced to track down were oppressors to the poupulation and tyrants. Another case in point is that through various game dialiogue it says the Assassins and Templars both wanted peace and we know the Templars wanted control but the Assasssins went against them beause they believed against tyranny not because they wanted free will at that time. Other evidence is when Illtani poisoned Alexander the Great because one, he was a Templar puppet and two because he was bringing war and the Assassins killed him in order to restore peace, just like Altair killed his targets to restore peace by ending the third crusade.The Assassins fought for peace and the pursuit of knowledge, not necessarily freedom, though sometimes in pursuit of these two things would end with liberty but it was more on the back burner so to speak and wouldn't go out of there way as they do now to accompish it. Another piece of evidence towards this is that in The Chain comic the Mentor says that the Assassins once used to kill anyone who got to greedy which ties in with the other evidence provided. Also there is a difference between free will and freedom (which often people don't understand and why Altair is the one that brought free will) because the Assassins like Illtali, Altair, Darius (who killed Xerxes to bring peace) freed people from tynanny and corruption not free will until Altair made it so. After however (in Bloodlines especially) Altair starts discussing the importance of freedom (because he saw what lack of free will causes when he battled Al-Mualim) to Maria which is drastically different dialogue from him only a couple weeks ago. During the rooftop scene Haytham says "it's your lot that partakes in freedom. Time was the Assassins professed a far more sensible goal, that of peace". Which means at some pointh the Brotherhood adapted to the ideogy of free will but that does not mean they gave up on peace because Connor says "freedom is peace" which can also be attributed to the Assassins mindset before Altair as well as I've said before freedom and free will are different in most aspects. Furthermore, Altair's understanding of the Creed which is in AC1 and AC:Initiates is that he says "our creed does not command us to be free, it commands us to be wise" which speaks to the mindset that I already discussed of the Assassins at this time that knoweldge is one of their sole goals. Another proof (which is the most canon apart of the in-game universe) is when Otso Berg during AC:Rogue (Berg's Inspirations) says "it was only after Altair reformed the Brotherhood with it's new ideals of "free will" that the conflict truly escalted and spread across the planet". This is proof in itself that Altair was the one who brought the basic ideology and importance of free will to the Assassins. I know this is long and I apologize but this is all the evidence that prove that Altair gave the ideolgy of free will to the Assassins during his reformation especially the in-game proof of Berg. 

Moving on, why did you remove The Three Ironies? This is not only described in the encyclopaedia (which you said you don't but I copied almost the same wording as said in there) but also the codex. This is undisputable fact which I suggest putting back on to the main page. 

And yeah the encyclopaedia says that women were allowed to rejoin thanks to the councelling of Maria during Altair's reformation. 

I apologize again for the length of this reply but I am a huge nerd when it comes to the lore of the series, I have every game, DLC, novel, graphic novel, comic book, even the short movies and I have done a lot of research regarding Altair's reformation of the Brotherhood and everything I originally posted on the main page was backed by in-game facts. With your help I want to add these things again but I would like if you could properly site them and reword them if necessary. You are very informed but I don't know if your a huge follower of the lore but the evidence I provided is all canon. This is a community for truth and I would very much like if you could repost my previous edits and help with the references and things like that. Thank you. SnapperHeadAC (talk) 07:42, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Edit: I just recieved your other two notifications and I'm sorry if I sounded mad or anything I just wanted to talk to you about it, you're a good guy and if you read my above reply hopefully it will make more sense as to why I made the edits in the first place. SnapperHeadAC (talk) 07:49, March 20, 2016 (UTC)