User talk:Sol Pacificus

Welcome to the Order, Sol Pacificus!

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Feel free to contact me on my talkpage if you need anything. Master Sima Yi (talk) 12:39, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Sandbox

Might I suggest this if you plan on doing an article revamp. It insures that all edits, between now and when you take the template down, are done by you alone. Stormbeast ♉ ^{The Helpful Place} 06:33, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I appreciate your suggestion though excuse my ignorance, I must confess that I'm confused as to how a sandbox works and whether it is necessary and/or mandatory. Thanks! Sol Pacificus (talk) 08:26, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

To quote a friend: "It's best to put into mainspace when it's good and ready, rather than half-done" and "it stops random people from screwing up plans." As to how it works, you just open the link I posted, create it, and copy the code from your project into your sandbox. It's not mandatory, but it is recommended. Stormbeast ♉ ^{The Helpful Place} 16:39, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

If I may make another suggestion, and I'm aware you've already put it on the Assassins page, try to refrain from these extremely long paragraphs. Five to eight line paragraphs should be the max, since that makes for easier reading. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 09:54, March 26, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware I have a very bad habit of writing too much or being wordy, a problem that's pretty much dogged me since elementary school. Helpful reminder nonetheless though, thank you. I actually need to check some of my older edits for word cruft. By the way, did you mean only in discussions, or also in my edits? In terms of the articles themselves, I'm not sure if this wiki favors inclusionism, hyperinclusionism, or prefers to be more concise than comprehensive if they ever contradict, especially in regards to character articles. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 21:52, March 26, 2016 (UTC)

I'm talking about your edits. I'm not telling you to cut stuff out, just to use more paragraphs. Paragraphs that stretch over 20 lines are just way too long. Turning one paragraph into multiple will make things a lot better to read and easier to go through. -- Master Sima Yi _Talk 21:55, March 26, 2016 (UTC)

Ohhh that's different then from what I was thinking. Alright, I'll be sure to refrain from excessively long paragraphs from now on. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 22:12, March 26, 2016 (UTC)

Reverted Edit

Hi, as for the grammatical errors that may have been in my Altair page edit there was nothing wrong with the facts I provided as it came from canonical sources. I suggest leaving my edit alone as all the facts deserve to be posted on a informative web page such as this. If I don't hear a response from you explaining yourself I will re-edit the page (and be mindful of the grammar) Thank you.ConmanWAR (talk) 04:37, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Hey! Thanks for bringing it up with me as I myself was a bit concerned I was too hasty. So here's my explanation:

I noticed that on the Assassins article you modified a sentence with a similar statement, that Altaïr decisively changed the direction of the Assassins towards the goal of absolute freedom. While Altaïr was indeed responsible for a great reformation of the brotherhood, I fear that such a statement is far too generalized. For one thing, we know that the Assassins predated Al-Mualim in other parts of the world for centuries (probably originating with Abel by the way), and the Roman brotherhood called themselves the Circles of Liberals which implied that they already believed in freedom and liberty to some degree. Although the Levantine Assassins definitely advocated strict obedience to their Mentor, which was abolished by Altaïr, it is actually not known with exactness how much of the ethos of free will already existed before Altaïr's reforms. This is because even in Assassin's Creed I, they talked of "freeing the minds of men" and that "peace must be learned, rather than forced."
Most especially, however, it is a misconception that the Assassins believe in absolute freedom as their highest goal. Notice that in the sentence you modified in the Assassins article, it was specifically worded to note that the Assassins came to emphasize liberty more throughout the centuries, until Haytham accused them of no longer believing in peace, just freedom. Beyond this accusation by Haytham and the transgressions against the Assassin code in Rogue by the Assassins in that game, this has never been substantiated, and even in 1794, at the end of Unity, Arno repeats this line:

"The Creed of the Assassin Brotherhood teaches us that nothing is forbidden to us. Once, I thought that meant we were free to do as we would. To pursue our ideals, no matter the cost. I understand now. Not a grant of permission, the Creed is a warning. Ideals too easily give way to dogma. Dogma becomes fanaticism. No higher power sits in judgment of us. No supreme being watches to punish us for our sins. In the end, only we ourselves can guard against our obsessions. Only we can decide whether the road we walk carries too high a toll."

―Arno Dorian

The fact that the conflict between the Assassins and Templars is simplified as freedom vs. order is a prevailing misconception among characters in the story, and fans themselves, to the point it's almost like a hidden, overarching theme. There are other lines given by Mary Reed, Altaïr, etc. which I can provide if you want.
In brief, Assassins emphasized liberty and freedom more as we moved closer to modern times. This trajectory began with Altaïr's reforms, but we should be careful of proclaiming it happened outright from him as he himself repudiated that the Creed meant freedom simply and continued talking about peace being a goal in his writings. Ezio's goal in the games is shown to be not freedom as an ends, but social justice, freeing the cities from corruption, but not necessarily freedom per se. The transition seems to have been a gradual process.
We should make a distinction between free will and freedom, however. Free will, a component of liberty, was probably always endorsed by Assassins from the very beginning, as far back as Abel, which was another problem with your edit that it began with Altaïr. Free will and/or freedom as a main goal, with peace no longer a goal (as your edit implied), simplifies the goals of the Assassins too much. We see even in the French Revolution, that the Assassins didn't fight for freedom for freedom's sake, and fought against the anarchic revolutionaries.
I personally thought that your edit didn't necessarily mean that the Assassins only cared about freedom, period, but it was far too general of a statement, such that that could easily be construed as the meaning.
This has become a long explanation so here I will try to list out the factual errors:

1. Free will likely had always been a core tenet of the Assassins, going back to the Roman era, the Qin era, etc. evident by the name "Circle of Liberals." It did not begin with Altaïr's reforms.
2. In spite of this, the Assassins did not make free will or freedom the one supreme goal, nor did they starting from Altaïr. There has always been many other components of their goals, and it's too bold of a claim, especially in light of how many characters have said that freedom being the only meaning of the Assassin is a misconception.
3. Even if the Assassins came to emphasize freedom/free will more after Altaïr, it is more likely that it was a gradual process (and it's actually possible that this was only an isolated case in the American colonies).
4. Your edit implies that the Assassins no longer fought for peace or the end of tyranny (because of their shifting towards free will more), that this shift, if it did occur, sacrificed the goal of peace or the goal of ending tyranny is almost certainly untrue (esp. since for the freedom-fighter, ending tyranny and freedom goes hand in hand).

That only covers the factual errors. The citation error is the format of your referencing, though I don't really know how to explain it as I just follow the format, and I'm not the best with coding. More notably though, I pay very close attention to each and every last line in every game, and I don't recall Rogue actually explicitly saying that Altaïr's reforms shifted the Assassins to free will as the main goal. It's already dubious if the Assassins in Rogue actually believed in freedom as an ends (in all technicality, while their actions implied it, their intentions were never explained), but where was the specific statement that Altaïr made this specific revolutionary change of making freedom as a goal above everything else they stood for? I would've asked you first instead in case I really just missed it, but because of the multiple issues of the edit, I chose to revert it entirely.

I would very much have tried to modify it accordingly instead rather than reverting it outright, but the deciding reason was that the article is a featured article, so I assumed the community already considered it to be in a "perfect state". Because of that, I would be very wary of editing it, though I'm not sure what's the policy around editing featured articles. Your edit was far too general of a statement, and could easily lead to the common simplified understanding of the Assassin vs. Templar conflict as freedom vs. order, when it is far deeper than that. It implied that Altaïr's reforms instantly brought about that shift, when it is more likely gradual (or even never happened and was an isolated case in the American colonies). Because it was such a contentious statement, I decided that even if I modified it, it might still be incorrect, and I didn't want to mess with that state of a featured article.

I apologize if my reversion seemed capricious. I myself was very concerned it wasn't the best call and later decided I should've just waited for a more experienced user to deal with it. I also greatly appreciate you being so prompt in checking in with me about it. :) However, my points about why I think the edit is flawed stands. I have no opinion about the latter line about Altaïr changing the order to allow women into the brotherhood, as I do not have the encyclopedia and cannot corroborate whether this is true or not. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 06:41, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Hello again, I thank you deeply for getting back in touch with me and offered me a valent reason as to why you made the edit. While you offer a very intelligent and deep reason I must counter some things. The first being the freedom debate. When you bring up the Liberals argument the term does not equal liberty. Liberal by definition is "open to new behaviour or opinions and willing to discard traditional values" which the term for the Roman Brotherhood was stated through not liberty. Furthermore, in AC1 when being lectured by Al-Mualim he says "do you remember what the Assassins fight for" in which Altair responds with "peace in all things" so this is saying the Assassins didn't have the goal of fighting for free will prior to Altair especially since the targets that Altair was forced to track down were oppressors to the poupulation and tyrants. Another case in point is that through various game dialiogue it says the Assassins and Templars both wanted peace and we know the Templars wanted control but the Assasssins went against them beause they believed against tyranny not because they wanted free will at that time. Other evidence is when Illtani poisoned Alexander the Great because one, he was a Templar puppet and two because he was bringing war and the Assassins killed him in order to restore peace, just like Altair killed his targets to restore peace by ending the third crusade.The Assassins fought for peace and the pursuit of knowledge, not necessarily freedom, though sometimes in pursuit of these two things would end with liberty but it was more on the back burner so to speak and wouldn't go out of there way as they do now to accompish it. Another piece of evidence towards this is that in The Chain comic the Mentor says that the Assassins once used to kill anyone who got to greedy which ties in with the other evidence provided. Also there is a difference between free will and freedom (which often people don't understand and why Altair is the one that brought free will) because the Assassins like Illtali, Altair, Darius (who killed Xerxes to bring peace) freed people from tynanny and corruption not free will until Altair made it so. After however (in Bloodlines especially) Altair starts discussing the importance of freedom (because he saw what lack of free will causes when he battled Al-Mualim) to Maria which is drastically different dialogue from him only a couple weeks ago. During the rooftop scene Haytham says "it's your lot that partakes in freedom. Time was the Assassins professed a far more sensible goal, that of peace". Which means at some pointh the Brotherhood adapted to the ideogy of free will but that does not mean they gave up on peace because Connor says "freedom is peace" which can also be attributed to the Assassins mindset before Altair as well as I've said before freedom and free will are different in most aspects. Furthermore, Altair's understanding of the Creed which is in AC1 and AC:Initiates is that he says "our creed does not command us to be free, it commands us to be wise" which speaks to the mindset that I already discussed of the Assassins at this time that knoweldge is one of their sole goals. Another proof (which is the most canon apart of the in-game universe) is when Otso Berg during AC:Rogue (Berg's Inspirations) says "it was only after Altair reformed the Brotherhood with it's new ideals of "free will" that the conflict truly escalted and spread across the planet". This is proof in itself that Altair was the one who brought the basic ideology and importance of free will to the Assassins. I know this is long and I apologize but this is all the evidence that prove that Altair gave the ideolgy of free will to the Assassins during his reformation especially the in-game proof of Berg. 

Moving on, why did you remove The Three Ironies? This is not only described in the encyclopaedia (which you said you don't but I copied almost the same wording as said in there) but also the codex. This is undisputable fact which I suggest putting back on to the main page. 

And yeah the encyclopaedia says that women were allowed to rejoin thanks to the councelling of Maria during Altair's reformation. 

I apologize again for the length of this reply but I am a huge nerd when it comes to the lore of the series, I have every game, DLC, novel, graphic novel, comic book, even the short movies and I have done a lot of research regarding Altair's reformation of the Brotherhood and everything I originally posted on the main page was backed by in-game facts. With your help I want to add these things again but I would like if you could properly site them and reword them if necessary. You are very informed but I don't know if your a huge follower of the lore but the evidence I provided is all canon. This is a community for truth and I would very much like if you could repost my previous edits and help with the references and things like that. Thank you. SnapperHeadAC (talk) 07:42, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Edit: I just recieved your other two notifications and I'm sorry if I sounded mad or anything I just wanted to talk to you about it, you're a good guy and if you read my above reply hopefully it will make more sense as to why I made the edits in the first place. SnapperHeadAC (talk) 07:49, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Don't worry you didn't sound angry to me at all :). A lot of what you pointed out seems to only prove that the Levantine Assassins' goal before Altaïr's reforms didn't revolve around freedom, their main goal being peace. This is not in contention, as it's actually part of my point, only that I'm convinced that the Assassins never deviated from that being their main goal, as by the time of Mary Reed and Arno, they also discuss freedom as not the real meaning of the Creed, and you can tell by all the Assassins actions save that of Achilles' that anarchy was not their pursuit. If freedom is their absolute goal, if freedom is their ends, this technically means that they are for anarchy, because anarchy is essentially freedom taken to the extreme such that it is the ends. They opposed anarchy in the French Revolution because they fought against the extreme radical factions such as the Hébertists and Enragés, and supported the Girondists, who were moderate revolutionaries. There is nothing in Assassin's Creed III to suggest that Connor support anarchy over the republicanism of the Patriots. The only thing that keeps people thinking that he wanted freedom as an ends is because of his simple exclamations of "All should be free!" but in the context of the American Revolution and if we look at what he did, it was much more likely that he supported democracy and a republic (e.g. the United States) over a stateless society completely, which is what absolute freedom technically means. Making this distinction is very important, which is why I thought your edit was far too general, and I made a massive revamp of the Assassins article correcting it. When you mention the lines given by Haytham and Juhani, you have to really take note that these are Templars speaking, who have always misinterpreted the Assassin's creed to mean "do whatever you wish." This is why when I wrote this sentence that you modified: "For this reason, the Assassins identified with the ideals of liberty over the centuries, to the extent that by the American Revolution, many Templars, notably Grand Master Haytham Kenway, believed that the Assassins had abandoned their goal of peace in favor of freedom as an ends [...]," I worded it specifically that Haytham believed that the Assassins abandoned their goal in favor of peace. This was something very notable to mention, but I left it ambiguous as to whether this is true or not (I can bet you though that it certainly is not true if you asked most of the Assassins). The conflict between the Assassins vs. Templars has never been so simple as freedom vs. order. The roots have been about the idea that it is irrational and unethical to act that any person has the Truth vs. the idea that the Truth is order. That Templars do not understand this and simplify it into "Truth is Freedom vs. Truth is Order" rather than the reality that it is "there is no Truth_{(nothing is true)} (by extension, we can only understand it through perspectivism, & by extension we can only learn it if people have free will) vs. the Truth is order." Finally, even if Juhani's words were completely true, that the Assassins' had shifted totally to freedom as a goal over peace, he was referencing the material from Shay, and Haytham took his interpretation from the same colonial Assassins. It's not impossible that they (and we the fans) have been basing this evolution purely from the deviation from one particular branch, using it to generalize all the Assassins. Finally, the fact that the Assassins shifted more towards emphasizing freedom doesn't necessarily mean that they replaced global peace with it as a goal completely. It could just be rhetorical. Templars like Juhani and Haytham would easily misinterpret it as such (because they'd see Assassins as anarchists).

Oh okay so it seems we're on the same page then, I must have interpreted it wrong, my apologies. Yes it's true that the Assassins didn't completely abandon their goal for peace because as you've said Assassins after Altair still killed in the name of peace. My argument and the evidence that I provided was to say how Altair gave the free will ideology to the Brotherhood as another goal to strive for in order to better humanity (I shouldn't have said they replaced peace with freedom in my orignal edit) and how Assassins before him didn't fight for free will. You and I are both correct in saying that the Assassins fight for both free will and peace now instead of just peace.The Assassins also fought to open the minds of men that would eventually lead to peace, not free will until Altair. There's the mixup I think even the biggest fans get confused over. I'll try to put it simply: Prior to Altair- fought for peace and/through knowledge/ Post Altair- fought for free will that would lead to knowledge and peace. Not that big of a difference but a differnce all the same. I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you originally said. Do you think we can add that part back in then and say something like "during Altair's reformation of the Brotherhood, free will was was focused upon as well". That way we are both correct and it stays true to the lore of the series. SnapperHeadAC (talk) 10:18, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what do you mean by the Three Ironies. Do you mean that was mentioned in the Paradoxes of the Assassins page? I was the original person that suggested it be introduced years ago actually, but at the time lacking the time to write it myself, someone else did. I realized that it left it open-ended, making it appear to many that the Assassins therefore are irrevocably hypocritical and irrational (and indeed many fans I met online were citing from the page). That was also before Black Flag where Edward gave his answer to these paradoxes, as did Ezio in Revelations. I never removed the section. I updated it with new information from Revelations and onward that it was lacking because characters had answered the ironies. It's actually dubious in itself because the irony of obeying the Mentor (i.e. implicitly without question) in spite of preaching free will likely dates to just before Altaïr reformed the brotherhood and so it may have been in reference to Al-Mualim, and knowing him the contradiction existed because he was manipulating the Assassins.

The Three Ironies are stated in the codex and in the encyclopaedia (was created by Altair) and it basically created a contradiction to the Creed's Three Tenets and created a sense of uncertainty and balance to the Brotherhood because it allowed the Assassins to meditate and think upon what the Creed stands for. And the free will vs obedience woudn't have come up as free will wasn't adopted until Altair but it contradicts opening the minds of men (meaning knowledge) compared to strict rules from the Mentor. SnapperHeadAC (talk) 10:18, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

I would honestly recommend not touching the Altaïr article for the moment as it is a featured article, and I'm afraid to mess it up. I already asked a bureau member what's our guidelines on that so I'm waiting for his feedback because I'm not sure what is appropriate to edit on a featured article. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 09:42, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

I disgree, we are fans and equals on this wiki page and basically the admins are trying to create a sort of dictatorship here without putting the facts on certain articles (I've had this happen before). As long as we have legitmiate canonical sources they can't argue against it. We are hardcore fans and facts should be told in this truth-based forum. I say we put up the facts that we've discussed here because they're all canon and factual. SnapperHeadAC (talk) 10:18, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

And yes, I am an enormous fan of Assassin's Creed. As I said, I take note of every single line (although not flawlessly), and the philosophies in the franchise speaks to me so much. If you take away the killing portion of the Assassin maxim, it can very much just be adapted to life in general: wisdom starts with the understanding that true knowledge is unattainable and no one is absolutely right, and nothing can be perfect; because nothing is perfect, we can choose nihilism or we can choose to strive our best towards the unreachable to make the most of what we can; to therefore redefine success by the journey not the destination (a huge part of the reason why Assassins have faith in humanity but Templars believe they are inherently corrupted so we have to control them); anything is possible in nature theoretically speaking so we must be open-minded; we are responsible for the lives of ourselves and the lives of others whether we like it or not because our actions will speak volumes on the world at large and of course ourselves so we must be ever mindful of our potential for great success or great disaster; that peace can only be achieved through education not force; and more. Assassin's Creed has literally helped me a lot with my ordeals in life, so yes it is my favorite franchise. Beyond the philosophy that matches me perfectly, which helped me refine all the ideas I had growing up, I'm also a huge fan of parkour, stealth, the ninja archetype, history, swordsmanship, and cultural diversity. It seemed like a video game just made for me xD. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 09:42, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

That's so good to hear, it's good to know that AC fans like you exist in the community. AC is my favourite series too and I've done a lot of research on the lore through the canon and lore material, just as you have. so I am confident that what I post on these wiki pages deserve to be told as again they are facts. I'm glad we have this discussion with a fellow hardcore AC fan, and again sorry for the mixup about the peace vs. freedom thing. We are both correct that they adopted free will through Altair but also get the ideolgy of peace. I look forward to hearing back from you. SnapperHeadAC (talk) 10:18, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Hey Conman/SnapperHead, so the bureau member I contacted regarding the extent that we can modify featured articles has yet responded to me. At this point, feel free to edit "Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad" (and of course any other article) as you wish. I have decided that if I do happen to disagree with any of your edits on Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad (even grammatical errors), I will refrain from touching it in any way for the time being, or at least I would discuss it with you first. This way, I give others a chance to review or provide their input as well. :) The only article that I'll be watching over strictly in terms of quality edits is the Assassins article since I'm actually still in the process of revamping it and just haven't found the time to commit to it enough for it to warrant a {{working revamp}} tag. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 22:14, March 22, 2016 (UTC)

Hey, I think it would be in the best interest if we do edit the Altair page together, such as I would bring forward an edit and you could double check it and make sure everything's in order. Does that soung good to you? That way we can ensure that maximum clarity and facts are brought forth. Continue doing a great job and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this proposal. Have a good day, 

SnapperHeadAC (talk) 11:49, March 23, 2016 (UTC)

That's a good idea, but I actually don't have Altaïr on my checklist of articles I have time to commit to at the moment. It's a featured article, so it technically shouldn't really need that much more, if any, work, which is kind of the point of why I didn't want to modify it unless a bureau member tells me it's okay. I'm fine with you editing it with whatever you wish, I just don't want to intrude on it in any way. I really want to give others in the community a chance to provide their input on it if any. Also, I hope I hadn't intimidated you with my reversion of your edit at the time. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 03:57, March 24, 2016 (UTC)

CorruPtion

I'll make a page for Sergei's corruption from ACCR once I get a, he's a minor case but his operations that he did is stated to not be in line with the traditionalist Assassins ideals and methods by Nikolai. Then there is Abbas Sofian and Jack the Ripper, both are major cases of corruption like François Mackandal and Achilles Davenport. Point is that while I'll make the pages themselves(when I got the time) I'll let you rewrite it to a higher quality as you're a more eloquent writer. As for the expansion of Ezio's corruption, it's as pointed out in the article itself. His lack of precision and the casualties and damages caused by his methods. Arguable the assaults at the arsenal after Yusuf's death can be included as it was a massacre to get to Ahmet. While guards isn't innocent per say, it's still another offensive action that result in a massacre. Like him burning the Ottoman navy, although that events biggest mistake was blowing up the tower(s) holding the Great Chain. Like other corrupted, his actions are closer to terrorism than the standard vigilantism by traditionalist. As said arguably, but that's not what this message is about. But the expansion of the corruption part by including Sergei, Jack and Abbas.--ACsenior (talk) 18:36, September 21, 2016 (UTC)

I just would like to clarify that I removed the last sentence concerning how Ezio's corruption was never punished for the following reasons:

1. I was wary that the tone of it verged too close to bias, or even if not bias, merely opinionated. This is trouble with articles such as this, which is why my preference was to not have a "Corruption" section at all, but that was not the opinion of other contributors. It would seem that Wookieepedia, the Star Wars wiki, which is in many ways the role model for franchise-specific wiki, tries to avoid discussing the philosophy and the controversies of Jedi and Sith altogether, in spite of the fact that both sides have far more explicit faults than the Assassins and Templars. In any case, my stance is that we should still keep the Corruption section as minimalistic as possible, and to trim it right down to the most factual of statements, and to avoid if possible, any rhetoric that may seem to verge on being opinionated, even while that may not be wholly possible to do.
   
2. As well, technically-speaking, we do not know if Ezio ever faced any reprimand from the other Assassins after these events. Even as Mentor, it's not impossible that he could have reflected on the incident and judged himself or be judged later to have erred and been punished in some way, whatever degree behind-the-scenes. It is unlikely, and I certainly don't believe he was (though I would bet some Asssassin would have at least criticized him for Cappadocia), but in connection with my statement above on minimalism, I think we should be as technical as possible.
   
3. I fear that we are going too far with cherry-picking here. I already disagree entirely with mentioning the destruction of the Great Chain. The reason is because we have to remember that Assassins, in spite of their stance on precision, are still a militant faction in its own way, and that they are in the midst of a war against Templars, even if the battlefields they fight upon are not clearly defined as in conventional wars. As with any war, even for those seeking to be precise and minimize collateral damage, they may find themselves in open conflict which necessitates that they use greater force or more overt means. In this case, if we argue that the destruction of the Great Chain was a terrorist act, then I would argue that the belligerents of any conventional war become terrorists as soon as they bomb a city and kill innocent lives in the process. Indeed, such an argument can be made (hence why I personally oppose wars). This should not excuse Ezio's actions in Cappadocia, but in the case of the Great Chain being raised by the Ottomans, who were hunting him and putting Ezio's life in danger, and with the danger of the Byzantines lurking about, I would say that we simply shouldn't be too quick to judge. Civilians were not targeted during the destruction of the Great Chain, and the Great Chain's destruction itself and the Ottoman fleet do not constitute as collateral damage because the Ottoman fleet is a military force seeking to harm Ezio and the Great Chain was an instrument they could use to accomplish this purpose. I find that citing this as another example verges far too close to cherry-picking and is also awkward for the article because readers might notice this cherry-picking given that the Great Chain and the Ottoman fleet cannot constitute as collateral damage. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 20:37, September 21, 2016 (UTC)

On another note, I would like to keep the size of the "Corruption" section proportional to the other sections. This falls in line with what I said about cherry-picking. Honestly, if we were to add such sections to the "Jedi" and "Sith" articles on Wookieepedia, at some point, I will stop short of mentioning every last example that the Sith committed an atrocity or the Jedi behaved in a way that was detrimental to the mental health of their students or hypocritical, and instead summarize them. I am at present, quite behind in Assassin's Creed, and I have not yet played the Chronicles series. I also have still not yet played Jack the Ripper; I just finished installing it the day before yesterday in fact. So I will not be reviewing those if you write anything concerning them, though I would feel pressured to be in greater haste to catch-up. xD Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 20:37, September 21, 2016 (UTC)