User talk:Sol Pacificus

Welcome to the Order, Sol Pacificus!

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Feel free to contact me on my talkpage if you need anything. Master Sima Yi (talk) 12:39, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Sandbox

Might I suggest this if you plan on doing an article revamp. It insures that all edits, between now and when you take the template down, are done by you alone. Stormbeast ♉ ^{The Helpful Place} 06:33, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I appreciate your suggestion though excuse my ignorance, I must confess that I'm confused as to how a sandbox works and whether it is necessary and/or mandatory. Thanks! Sol Pacificus (talk) 08:26, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

To quote a friend: "It's best to put into mainspace when it's good and ready, rather than half-done" and "it stops random people from screwing up plans." As to how it works, you just open the link I posted, create it, and copy the code from your project into your sandbox. It's not mandatory, but it is recommended. Stormbeast ♉ ^{The Helpful Place} 16:39, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

Reverted Edit

Hi, as for the grammatical errors that may have been in my Altair page edit there was nothing wrong with the facts I provided as it came from canonical sources. I suggest leaving my edit alone as all the facts deserve to be posted on a informative web page such as this. If I don't hear a response from you explaining yourself I will re-edit the page (and be mindful of the grammar) Thank you.ConmanWAR (talk) 04:37, March 20, 2016 (UTC)

Hey! Thanks for bringing it up with me as I myself was a bit concerned I was too hasty. So here's my explanation:

I noticed that on the Assassins article you modified a sentence with a similar statement, that Altaïr decisively changed the direction of the Assassins towards the goal of absolute freedom. While Altaïr was indeed responsible for a great reformation of the brotherhood, I fear that such a statement is far too generalized. For one thing, we know that the Assassins predated Al-Mualim in other parts of the world for centuries (probably originating with Abel by the way), and the Roman brotherhood called themselves the Circles of Liberals which implied that they already believed in freedom and liberty to some degree. Although the Levantine Assassins definitely advocated strict obedience to their Mentor, which was abolished by Altaïr, it is actually not known with exactness how much of the ethos of free will already existed before Altaïr's reforms. This is because even in Assassin's Creed I, they talked of "freeing the minds of men" and that "peace must be learned, rather than forced."
Most especially, however, it is a misconception that the Assassins believe in absolute freedom as their highest goal. Notice that in the sentence you modified in the Assassins article, it was specifically worded to note that the Assassins came to emphasize liberty more throughout the centuries, until Haytham accused them of no longer believing in peace, just freedom. Beyond this accusation by Haytham and the transgressions against the Assassin code in Rogue by the Assassins in that game, this has never been substantiated, and even in 1794, at the end of Unity, Arno repeats this line:

"The Creed of the Assassin Brotherhood teaches us that nothing is forbidden to us. Once, I thought that meant we were free to do as we would. To pursue our ideals, no matter the cost. I understand now. Not a grant of permission, the Creed is a warning. Ideals too easily give way to dogma. Dogma becomes fanaticism. No higher power sits in judgment of us. No supreme being watches to punish us for our sins. In the end, only we ourselves can guard against our obsessions. Only we can decide whether the road we walk carries too high a toll."

―Arno Dorian

The fact that the conflict between the Assassins and Templars is simplified as freedom vs. order is a prevailing misconception among characters in the story, and fans themselves, to the point it's almost like a hidden, overarching theme. There are other lines given by Mary Reed, Altaïr, etc. which I can provide if you want.
In brief, Assassins emphasized liberty and freedom more as we moved closer to modern times. This trajectory began with Altaïr's reforms, but we should be careful of proclaiming it happened outright from him as he himself repudiated that the Creed meant freedom simply and continued talking about peace being a goal in his writings. Ezio's goal in the games is shown to be not freedom as an ends, but social justice, freeing the cities from corruption, but not necessarily freedom per se. The transition seems to have been a gradual process.
We should make a distinction between free will and freedom, however. Free will, a component of liberty, was probably always endorsed by Assassins from the very beginning, as far back as Abel, which was another problem with your edit that it began with Altaïr. Free will and/or freedom as a main goal, with peace no longer a goal (as your edit implied), simplifies the goals of the Assassins too much. We see even in the French Revolution, that the Assassins didn't fight for freedom for freedom's sake, and fought against the anarchic revolutionaries.
I personally thought that your edit didn't necessarily mean that the Assassins only cared about freedom, period, but it was far too general of a statement, such that that could easily be construed as the meaning.
This has become a long explanation so here I will try to list out the factual errors:

1. Free will likely had always been a core tenet of the Assassins, going back to the Roman era, the Qin era, etc. evident by the name "Circle of Liberals." It did not begin with Altaïr's reforms.
2. In spite of this, the Assassins did not make free will or freedom the one supreme goal, nor did they starting from Altaïr. There has always been many other components of their goals, and it's too bold of a claim, especially in light of how many characters have said that freedom being the only meaning of the Assassin is a misconception.
3. Even if the Assassins came to emphasize freedom/free will more after Altaïr, it is more likely that it was a gradual process (and it's actually possible that this was only an isolated case in the American colonies).
4. Your edit implies that the Assassins no longer fought for peace or the end of tyranny (because of their shifting towards free will more), that this shift, if it did occur, sacrificed the goal of peace or the goal of ending tyranny is almost certainly untrue (esp. since for the freedom-fighter, ending tyranny and freedom goes hand in hand).

That only covers the factual errors. The citation error is the format of your referencing, though I don't really know how to explain it as I just follow the format, and I'm not the best with coding. More notably though, I pay very close attention to each and every last line in every game, and I don't recall Rogue actually explicitly saying that Altaïr's reforms shifted the Assassins to free will as the main goal. It's already dubious if the Assassins in Rogue actually believed in freedom as an ends (in all technicality, while their actions implied it, their intentions were never explained), but where was the specific statement that Altaïr made this specific revolutionary change of making freedom as a goal above everything else they stood for? I would've asked you first instead in case I really just missed it, but because of the multiple issues of the edit, I chose to revert it entirely.

I would very much have tried to modify it accordingly instead rather than reverting it outright, but the deciding reason was that the article is a featured article, so I assumed the community already considered it to be in a "perfect state". Because of that, I would be very wary of editing it, though I'm not sure what's the policy around editing featured articles. Your edit was far too general of a statement, and could easily lead to the common simplified understanding of the Assassin vs. Templar conflict as freedom vs. order, when it is far deeper than that. It implied that Altaïr's reforms instantly brought about that shift, when it is more likely gradual (or even never happened and was an isolated case in the American colonies). Because it was such a contentious statement, I decided that even if I modified it, it might still be incorrect, and I didn't want to mess with that state of a featured article.

I apologize if my reversion seemed capricious. I myself was very concerned it wasn't the best call and later decided I should've just waited for a more experienced user to deal with it. I also greatly appreciate you being so prompt in checking in with me about it. :) However, my points about why I think the edit is flawed stands. I have no opinion about the latter line about Altaïr changing the order to allow women into the brotherhood, as I do not have the encyclopedia and cannot corroborate whether this is true or not. Sol Pacificus^Telepathy 06:41, March 20, 2016 (UTC)