Talk:Persian Brotherhood of Assassins

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Iltani founder?

Per dialogue in Mirage should we put Iltani as the founder in the infobox? I also thought about suggesting a merge with the Babylonian Brotherhood but it is possible that Iltani was established her own branch separate from them rather than that group directly transitioning into this one. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 06:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I remember encountering that mention in Mirage somewhere but don't remember exactly where. Can you please quote it and tell us exactly where it is found? And if I remember correctly, we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region. I believe we may have settled on the latter since the names are also used for cells, but we need to double-check on the past discussions. I don't see any basis for a merge with the Babylonian Brotherhood. Both the names Persian Brotherhood and Babylonian Brotherhood originated in The Essential Guide (1st ed.) where they are mentioned separately. In fact, it's not even clear if we should be treating this as the same as the branch based in Alamut in Mirage (although I would hope that this could be verified). A lot of editors seem to have a working assumption that branches of the Assassins and Templars would be co-extensive with country borders, which not only is not necessarily the case but also isn't very realistic. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 07:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe it to be dialogue (possibly ambient or talking to random NPCs) in either A New Beginning or Taking Flight but transcriptions are not yet complete and the line is currently missing. I just put this on this talk page since we don't have a Hidden Ones of Alamut or whatever and didn't want to forget this later. You bring up a good point about the Persian and Babylonian Brotherhoods both being featured in the Guide as separate. I agree that rites and guild territorial coverage should, given actually good worldbuilding, be divorced from state borders (sidenote: this is a pet peeve of mine regarding the Harry Potter universe, if the Wizarding World withdrew from mundane society by the late 1600s why do the Ministries of Magic map to current polities for the most part). Lacrossedeamon (talk) 08:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The was spoken by Tabid to Basim in Taking Flight. I have included the said quote on Iltani's page. Lady Kyashira (talk) 15:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Supposing that we do treat the Alamut branch as being founded by Iltani, do you think it'd be too weird to merge it with Babylonian Brotherhood but not the two with Persian Brotherhood? And what about the Levantine Brotherhood? Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 14:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Paraphrasing from Discord and to clear up my position. I am actually against merging the branches at this time because it is unclear if Iltani being a founder of the branch in Mirage (if Tabid is meaning the branch specifically rather than the Hidden Ones in general) means she was the founder of her original branch. She could be like the Polo brothers who started out at Masyaf but then established branches elsewhere. As for the Levantine issue that is complicated due to both how earlier entries depict their relationship and the fact that the establishment of the branch at Alamut has been retconned. We have a note from Rayhan alluding to the future establishment of the Levantine branch but since there is a couple intervening centuries it's basically useless. Any attempt to reconcile the difference would veer too much into headcanon/speculation. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 02:28, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

My concern at this time though is that we are inconsistently referring to Alamut as belonging to either the Levantine or Persian Brotherhood. If both choices constitute speculation, what is the proper course of action? Treating Alamut as "Levantine" had owed to two things:

1. The Essential Guide happening to call Hassan-i Sabbah a Levantine Assassin.
2. The belief that Alamut and Masyaf (and their respective proximal citadels if any) had to have de jure been the same branch as they were still seen as following a new iteration of the Assassins as a public state and preceding this state's dissolution by Altaïr. With Assassins and Hidden Ones being more and more synonymous and continuous and Alamut having already existed as a Hidden One stronghold in Mirage... maybe this is no longer a strong reason.

As we all know, The Essential Guide is not a very reliable source, and it is a one-off mention, but I didn't wish to cherry-pick either. Personally, I think it is far less confusing if we were to treat Alamut and Masyaf as separate branches on the basis that the AC1 guide describes Al Mualim splintering from Hassan the Younger and creating his own autonomous base. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 06:49, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Your final suggestion is one I am fond of. My idea for if we want to treat them as part of the same entity is that at the beginning the Alamut sect dominated the relationship between the two but as Al Mualim gained more power he was able to become the controlling voice with Alamut nominally the head but Masyaf the de facto leader which influenced what the branch was called. Basically the Nizari state being called the Persian Branch early on but later people coming to call it the Levantine Branch as the power dynamic shifted. I think until (if ever) we get an expanded look at Hassan-i Sabbah's life we just have to consider the Guide in error calling him a Levantine Assassin except in the loosest retrospective. I think the Secret Crusade might also have a bit dealing with the relationship between the two. I mean we can't just make a page for the Nizari state and at least call it a day on the branch post 1090 can we? Lacrossedeamon (talk) 08:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)