Talk:Thermopylae

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Hot Gates or Malis?

There is a disagreement currently over whether this and Thermopylai should be redirected to the Hot Gates of Thermopylai or Malis. As far as the canon is concerned, the region known as Malis in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey contained the passageway, but was not the passageway itself. Sadelyrate (siniath) 14:39, August 6, 2020 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article of Thermopylae specifically states that in ancient times, the region was called Malis which was named after the Malians. It is also called "Hot Gates", but in this case, is referencing not referencing to the passageway. XOdeyssusx (talk) 14:48, August 6, 2020 (UTC)

Yet, we follow the AC-canon in this wiki, and only the historical account when it doesn't contradict the stated canon. And in AC-canon, Thermypylae is part of Malis, not a synonym for it. Sadelyrate (siniath) 14:50, August 6, 2020 (UTC)

This line on the Battle of Thermopylae:

"In the end, the Greeks decided on Thermopylai. The area featured a narrow pass that could act as a bottleneck for the Persian army, negating their numerical superiority."

It's clearly placing a distinction between the two, the region and the passageway itself. XOdeyssusx (talk) 14:55, August 6, 2020 (UTC)

Also, I like to add on that, I feel we should not have to nitpick everthing according to AC-Canon, even in this case of locations. XOdeyssusx (talk) 14:58, August 6, 2020 (UTC)

That's from the Discovery Tour: Ancient Greece, right? That's one statement against all the others in the game itself. Not to mention that the Discovery Tour-stuff is more a RL-teaching tool than a piece of AC-canon. But I'd like to hear others' opinions about this, for our opinions are plain by now. As for nitpicking AC-canon... that's why we're here. Sadelyrate (siniath) 14:59, August 6, 2020 (UTC)

I’m of the opinion that both should redirect to the Hot Gates, not Malis, but DarkFeather thinks we might want to make a forum post and do a poll for it. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 15:21, August 6, 2020 (UTC)

I just want to point out that we actually don't treat Assassin's Creed maps as authoritative in regards to which region a location is situated in. The reason is because world maps in every game is obviously drastically scaled down, with the real-world geography severely distorted. They cannot be taken as real, canonical indicators because the real consequences of such scaled down geography would be catastrophic. In many cases, like in Origins where Sais and Letopolis are placed in the wrong nomes or where Cyrene is directly north from Siwa rather than situated much further to the west (though technically still a bit north)... we are supposed to be adhering to the real-world geography. I guess if we go by Lacrosse's extreme gamification position on the Animus :P, we can even say that the Animus models the world differently, but that won't change the fact the canonical geography in the world is not like that.

So I don't know how this relates to the debate because I'm confused where Sadel and Odey's positions differ, but just keep in mind that we shouldn't treat game maps as 100% authoritative. As for opening up a forum post, I think that only makes sense if this can be broadened past just this one article, like if this is a recurring debate we may encounter elsewhere. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 23:03, August 6, 2020 (UTC)

It’s not about maps, but how the world is treated in-game. And even if it was about maps, then by Odey’s logic we’d need to list Naxos and Paros as well as Lesbos and Chios under Southern Sporades. Because that’s how it is IRL.

But we don’t do that, because in AC-canon, those islands aren’t counted as part of the Southern Sporades. Sadelyrate (siniath) 15:08, August 7, 2020 (UTC)

Sadel, I would guess that we don't list Naxos, Paros, Lesbos, and Chios under Southern Sporades because you or Odey made the articles and weren't sure. These islands should, in fact, be listed as part of the Southern Sporades (although we can also leave it ambiguous). Now, in some cases, we might be able to make a case that the geographical boundaries were different at the time, which is an argument we need to make for Sais being in the wrong nome. Nevertheless, you're still missing the point. Your idea that "in AC-canon, those islands aren't counted as part of the Southern Sporades" itself comes from the way the map organizes the territories right? Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:45, August 10, 2020 (UTC)

Actually... it doesn’t. My stance stems from Kassandra having different comments for Malis and Thermopylae. (In regards to Southern Sporades, how the people in the game act, and word things. Kodros made his home within the Petrified Islands, not Southern Sporades, and so forth.) Sadelyrate (siniath) 20:06, August 10, 2020 (UTC)

I'd hate to burden you, but I would need the exact memories or documents to verify these sources. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 00:26, August 11, 2020 (UTC)

• Kassandra, upon approaching the passage of Thermopylae: "Thermopylai... They say you can't walk this battlefield without getting blood on your toes." (Not part of a memory, though easily triggered in "Memories Awoken"
• Kassandra, in Malis: "The Daughters of Artemis are strong here. I'll be on my guard." (Not part of a memory, but rather a 'world comment'. Which have been taken as canonical enough to merit basing an article on, like say, Garos.)

So far, the only basis for Odey's claim comes from DT. I expect to see in-game evidence to support Malis = Thermopylae, for ACwiki is not meant to be 'Wikipedia light w/AC', but ACWiki. Sadelyrate (siniath) 08:09, August 11, 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the two examples. I have already confessed to the others that I have forgotten everything about Odyssey lol. I am getting the impression that Thermopylae would technically neither be the entire region of Malis from the game nor just the Hot Gates in and of itself. On the other hand, I do think the ACWiki not meant to be 'Wikipedia light w/AC' remark is rather unnecessary. The point Odey was making isn't that we must emulate Wikipedia's statements on history even if he is drawing from real-world considerations. I personally consider Discovery Tour a mostly authoritative source if not the best source. You are right that we should hear more evidence from the actual game presented from Odey as well however.

Also would having Thermopylae be a disambiguation page for Malis and the Hot Gates be a possible compromise? Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 22:59, August 11, 2020 (UTC)

As long as there is no proof that Malis = Thermopylae, disambiguation page won't cut it. At least as long as all the references for the place are things that happened in the past, when what in modern day is called Thermopylae was known as Malis.

Furthermore, on Ubisoft's page, it's mentioned that Xerxes I and Leonidas' forces clashed in Malis, clearly referencing the Battle of Thermopylae. However, even if one might say that a grand battle was fought in France, no one goes around referring to all of France as Somme. Stating that Thermopylae = Malis has the same ring.

What's more, Malis in general is rather mountainous. Still, on Lion of Leonidas' Historical Location tidbit it's mentioned that the monument was raised "on the hill of Thermopylai to commemorate Leonidas." Not just one of the many, many hills in all of Malis, but the hill specifically in Thermopylai. Sadelyrate (siniath) 05:01, August 12, 2020 (UTC)

I think your reasoning is sound. I would really like to hear from Odey, but he told us that he doesn't feel comfortable engaging in debates. We should give him a few more days in case he changes his mind, but after that, you're free to redirect this to "Hot Gates of Thermopylai". Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:10, August 14, 2020 (UTC)