Talk:Courtesan

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isnt it when you build a brothel in Monteriggioni courtesans appear? XKMS Famine 23:02, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

OBJECTION!!

I saw courtesans doing parkour, doing that run across walls where it's the one-foot-width wooden poles or the walls. Spartan-617 15:10, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Courtesans vs. Concubines

So I just created the article Concubines, only to realize that its content is already covered here. I'm not sure if concubines should go under this article.

The technical definition of a "courtesan" refers to a lady of court (though originally a courtier, male or female). Courtesans were well-educated and trained in the arts of music and dancing, especially in association with a wealthy or noble society. In this respect, a concubine to the emperor is a courtesan. However, the word "courtesan" as used in Assassin's Creed refers to prostitutes, or as a euphemism for prostitutes. Although concubines are essentially mistresses, Chinese concubines were not prostitutes (at least not the imperial ones, though maybe for a middle-class businessman they could be) and so are distinct from the courtesans in Ezio's trilogy. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 04:34, January 24, 2017 (UTC)

Since there's at least some difference in meaning, I don't mind the continued existence of the Concubines article. I suggest you transfer any information about concubines that you might have missed (the Concubines article atm is pretty general) from the Courtesans article to your Concubines article. Then the concubines section on the Courtesans article can be removed. Crook ^{The Constantine District} 09:09, January 24, 2017 (UTC)

Having no intention of opening this discussion concluded a long time, I don't know whether I should put these words on this topic or the next one, but what i foucs on most is imperial concubines, so I venture to write down my opinions on this topic. The courtesans and the imperial concubines are obviously not lunmped together. There are Ottoman concubines, Mamluk concubines and ancient Chinese concubines, but But they are all attached to the rulers, usually having no chance to contact other normal men. And there usually no overt economic transaction between the two(perhaps one) genders. After reading sentence "In China, this role was largely served by the imperial concubines", I think we should delete the content which is not in line with the reality. 一个赛艇门 (talk) 05:27, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion

This is an ongoing discussion.

When this article was originally created due to AC2, the term 'Courtesan' was a clear and easy choice. Even though it strictly referred to a 'lady of the court', in AC it was used as a euphemism for a prostitute. Since then, there's been a slew of other terms used of people (usually women in AC) engaged in the activity of selling sex, and 'courtesan' is an uneasy fit when talking about ancient Greece's hetaerae or the Victorian 'unfortunate women'.

Similarly, though the article Mercenary began in the same 'age' as 'Courtesan', that article is not called condottiero.

I suggest, therefore, that the name of the article is changed to either 'Prostitute' or 'Prostitution', following Piracy and Wikipedia. Sadelyrate (siniath) 08:51, May 6, 2019 (UTC)

I think that you might have a point although I am having trouble appreciating a couple of your arguments.

First, if we're talking about which term is more fitting for in the context of more recent games, courtesan is not uneasy for hetaerae. In fact, hetaerae would have been the quintessential courtesans in our sense of the word, more so than the prostitutes of the Italian Renaissance, because they were actually often ladies of the court—Aspasia being an prime example.

This leaves the question of whether it is unfitting for the prostitutes of Victorian era London. While their image is certainly much grimmer, evoking the squalor of the slums, they don't really differ in essence from the prostitutes of Florence or Rome. The prostitutes of Italian city-states were most often downtrodden, impoverished women all the same. Their only difference from those of Victorian London based on their portrayals in the media are in their living conditions, which were better in Italian city-states.

As a result, up until this moment, I had never thought it an issue to use such a euphemism for prostitutes of Victorian London either although I can understand why it would feel out-of-place with its aesthetic.

Secondly, that the article "Mercenary" is not called titled "Condotierro" instead isn't a good example because it was named according to the way the faction is referred to in the game, just as this article "Courtesan" was. The two cases are dissimilar, one is a euphemism used almost exclusively in those days and the other was more prominently used than its synonym. Notwithstanding this, a condotierro refers specifically to a mercenary leader, such as Bartolomeo d'Alviano or Federico da Montefeltro, not mercenaries in general.

It's important to note that Ubisoft's choice to use the term courtesan over prostitute for the games set in the Renaissance likely has less to do with it being historically accurate but more to do with avoiding controversy and legal issues.

With all of this out of the way, a strong argument that can actually be made for the page move is that prostitute is ultimately the most technical term that broadly covers all forms that prostitutes in the series have taken. In fact, while this page covers hetaerae, there should probably be a main page for it. I would wait for the opinions of others before making such a move. I think due to how ingrained this euphemism is in Assassin's Creed, we should exercise a little caution. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 12:04, May 6, 2019 (UTC)

Didn't mean the meaning of it, but rather its anachronism; 'courtesan' is way younger term than 'hetaerae'. But granted, there is the connotation difference. While courtesans were 'ladies of the court', hetaerae could also be religious figures, referenced in-game as well. Something not traditionally associated with courtesans. Sadelyrate (siniath) 12:49, May 6, 2019 (UTC)

I think you're conflating courtesan, as in actual courtesans, and courtesan as another word for prostitute, but which bears the connotation of being courtly. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 14:02, May 6, 2019 (UTC)

And as for courtesan being an anachronism, I'm not sure how anachronistic a euphemism or synonym of prostitute really is in the context of Classical Greece since it might be argued that it's just another part of using modern English to discuss the ancient world anyways, i.e. they won't have known the English word prostitute either. It's not like using courtesan is applying a modern concept that they did not have. Anyway, I've asked Sima about it, and I hope others like Lacrosse and Odeyssus can weigh in too. The strongest argument for a move is that prostitute is the most technical, safest, and broadest term for all forms of prostitutes, and I think that argument should be sufficient to justify a move, and I think that's really what you're getting at ultimately. It's just that all these other arguments being raised here are just a little shaky in my honest opinion. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 14:23, May 6, 2019 (UTC)

Let's wait two weeks from May 6, and if there are no objections by then, we will move it. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 20:32, May 7, 2019 (UTC)

Another possibility is to create the article on prostitution (like you kinda suggeste), and cut down the article on courtesans to concern only the women in ACII and Brotherhood. And like with the article on brothels, mention courtesans briefly and link to the main article. (May 6th wasn't one of my brightest days. These things happen. My apologies.) Sadelyrate (siniath) 11:39, May 8, 2019 (UTC)

I know it's years later, but thought I'd bump this discussion. I saw the phrase "women of the night" used in Hidden Ones DLC memory and noticed it links to Courtesan, even though the occupation still currently is meant as a catch-all for any sex worker. I checked this talk page, as I was sure others would have noted the incongruity, and also see that we left a unresolved. Do we still want to go ahead with it, even if it means substantial maintenance separating Ezio Saga uses of the word from users' retroactive interpretations for other media? – Darman (talk) 00:40, 4 October 2024 (UTC)