Forum:Sourcing articles

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[[Category:Watercooler|Forum:Sourcing articles]]

FORUM CLOSED: Consensus reached to source all articles.

This wiki is coming along, however, there is an awful lot of speculative (to put it kindly) information on the site that I personally feel has no purpose existing on site. I made a point a while back of removing any mention of Vidic, Al Mualim and Borgia being related based on a users belief that they "looked similar" and this was supported. Unfortunately, I have recently spotted new and equally made-up fanon creeping into the articles of this site. Examples include;

• "Al Mualim is likely based upon a real life figure named Rashid ad-Din Sinan, a.k.a. The Old Man of the Mountain, who led the Syrian Assassins and died within Assassin's Creed's timeline. However, this is unconfirmed." [src]
• "At the end of his life, Giovanni seems to have also been a stronger sword fighter than Ezio. Ezio fought with Rodrigo Borgia several times over the years; but Giovanni was such a fearsome adversary that Rodrigo fled from his first confrontation with him, after nearly getting his throat cut, and never engaged him in direct combat again. Giovanni also seems to have been more agile in combat, being able to perform various kinds of flips as opposed to simply dodging." [src]
• Alan Rikkin's article shows the face of one of the Abstergo bosses, and presents him as a possible representation of Rikkin.

These are just a handful, based mostly from just the trivia sections of the articles; however the speculation can be found throughout many of the articles, as well as some editors own personal opinions which most definitely do not belong on the wiki. Because of this, I would like to propose a policy for sourcing articles be adopted by this wiki, with the purpose of ensuring all information on our articles is sourced correctly, and efficiently. Not only would this aid us in clearing up the rubbish that pollutes a great number of our articles, but it would also allow users to find out where the information has been taken from, and improve the reputation of the wiki in the eyes of the reader and critics.

I've also fully sourced the article Assassins (well, 90% sourced) so as to give contributors and idea as to what an article should look like if this policy goes through.

Attribution policy proposal

Now, a lot of this is going to be similar to the attribution policy that can be found on Wookieepedia, a site I formerly contributed to and an excellent example of a strong sourcing policy, so credit sent where credits due. Now, onto the policy.

Point number one: The AC wiki does not publish original thought.
Original thought refers to material that is not attributable to a reliable, published source. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, ideas, statements, and personal opinion; any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material. All information on an article must be attributed to a reliable source (see Point 2).

Point number two: Reliable sources.
Due to the rather limited amount of media currently existing within the Assassin's Creed universe, in order to be classed as a "reliable source", a medium must meet the following criteria;

1. The medium must be published by, or endorsed by, Ubisoft and relate explicitly to the Assassin's Creed series.
2. Information given on an official Ubisoft forum should only be considered canon (see Point 3) when it is published by an administrator of the forum, and subsequently an employee of Ubisoft, and confirmed as fact in said post.
3. Information given in any medium must explicitly indicate a view before it is entered into the article; for example, the assumption that an an unknown individual is xxx is not permitted based on ambiguous data.

Point number three: Canonicity.
Even though there is a limited amount of material covering the Assassin's Creed series, as mention in Point 2, the possibility of conflicting information is present. As such, the following assumptions should be made before information is entered into the article;

1. The videogames Assassin's Creed and Assassin's Creed II are the highest tier of canon. If any information given in another videogame or medium explicitly contradicts that given in these two games, it is considered non-canon. For example, if Assassin's Creed: Renaissance says it took an individual tree days to travel from Venice to Florence, whilst Assassin's Creed II clearly indicates it only took two, the article will cite the game over the novella.
2. The canonicity of the mediums is tiered; the highest tier being the aforementioned game. The second highest is the videogames Altaïr's Chronicles, Bloodlines and Discovery. The third, the Assassin's Creed: Lineage short-film and Assassin's Creed: Renaissance novella. And finally the fourth, the Assassin's Creed Graphic Novel.

Point number four: Quotations.
Quotations must be sourced.

Citing a source

Once a source is found for the information to be added, the user who wishes to add the information must also cite it. However, a few key points must be observed.

Point number one: Introduction.
Do not cite sources in the introduction; most, if not all of the information in the introduction is mentioned again later in the article and should be cited within the main text. This helps to limit congestion of the introductory text and keep the overall presentation respectable. If, however, a sourced piece of information is not mentioned again in the main text, cite it where required.

Point number two: Positioning.
Citations go immediately after punctuation and outside of quotation marks, with no space between the end of a sentence and a reference tag. It must be made directly after that which is being cited, so as to prevent confusion to the reader. If an entire paragraph cites information from a single source, then simply place the citation at the end of the paragraph.

Point number three: Format.
Citations must be inserted as follows;

• For the single insertion of a citation, proceed as follows. On the Edit page, enter:

<ref>''[[Assassin's Creed: Lineage]]''</ref>

• For multiple insertions of the same citation, proceed as follows. On the Edit page, this is placed at the first insertion point:

<ref name="Assassin's Creed: Lineage">''[[Assassin's Creed: Lineage]]''</ref>

• This is placed at the second and all subsequent insertion points of citation:

<ref name="Assassin's Creed: Lineage" />

Point number four: Real-world references.
Real-world refernces should be kept to a minimum, and mentioned only in the 'Trivia' section of an article. The references must add something constructive to the article, and come from a source reliable in relation to the field it is from. For example, the line 'Niccolò Machiavelli wrote The Prince, a book which seems to counter the very ideals of the assassins. It is a "widely held […] view" that The Prince was written as a work of Satire.' Should be written as such;

[[Niccolò Machiavelli]] wrote ''The Prince'', a book which seems to counter the very ideals of the assassins<ref>''[[wikipedia:The Prince|]]''</ref>.
It is a "widely held […] view"<ref>"Lecture on Machiavelli's 'The Prince'</ref>  that ''The Prince'' was written as a work of Satire.

Point number five: Reference list.
At the bottom of the article, just before categories and appearance templates such as {{ACII}} the following must be inserted;

==Notes and references==
{{reflist}}

Vote upon proposal

Well, that's my proposal. Although this is an initial draft, I do believe it adequately covers the needs of the wiki for the time being; all that's left is the vote. Just a simple "yay" or "nay" will do, but the vote will end on the 1^st March, 15:00 GMT.

Yay

1. As the one who proposed, and main proponent of, this policy, I vote yes. User:Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 15:29, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
2. D.Cello can tell you how I feel about speculation and presumption--it drives me insane. I support this proposal. AgentValentine 15:33, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
3. looks very good, Jasca -- D. Cello 17:50, February 22, 2010 (UTC) --

Nay

1. well the sources are clear. at least to me - SilverSummoner^TaLk 18:10, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Comments

I do have one comment--what about historical fact or scholarly research? For example, Machiavelli wrote The Prince, which conflicts with Assassin teachings, however the book conflicts with his other books, which are primarily democratic. Many scholars believe The Prince to be a work of Satire. AgentValentine 16:06, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

This policy is more to do with people OR'ing articles, but I suppose in a situation like the one you mention one would simply cite the source for that information. In the case of your example it would be;

Machiavelli wrote The Prince, however the book conflicts with his other books, which are primarily democratic <ref>''[[xxx]]''</ref>. It is believed that The Prince was written as a work of Satire.<ref>''[[zzz]]''</ref>

Wherein "xxx" is the medium that says The Prince conflicts with his primarily democratic writings; as well as another source ("zzz") next to it indicating that it was believed to be a possible satire. I suppose i could add real-life sourcing as an addendum, but I didn't particularly wan't to over-complicate it. User:Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 16:18, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Honestly, the information in the article about the Prince could just be removed if you don't want to over-complicate it. I don't really think it needs to be mentioned at all since it's not in the games, other than the fact that he wrote it. Right now it pretty much says he went against assassin teachings to write it. AgentValentine 16:42, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I always thought that wikia-gaming does not need citations on the articles cuz you can find all the things in the game. O.o - SilverSummoner^TaLk 16:28, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

But people are posting their opinions in articles and not just factual information regarding the games. Jasca proposed that we cite which game the information came from. AgentValentine 16:42, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Can't we just like... revert the edit should they made another speculation? Cause citations will make us look like wikipedia. and a bit troublesome, IMO. - SilverSummoner^TaLk 16:47, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

We could, and then we have them add another load of rubbish to another article. I'd rather nip stuff like this in the bud before it starts personally. What does looking like wikipedia have to do with anything? Citing sources shows that we care about the wiki and the source of our information, unless you want to give of the impression that this site is cobbled together by a bunch of thirteen year olds who aren't even old enough to legally play the games. Also, it's not only the games we have to worry about, we have both Lineage and Renaissance to consider as well. Finally, I've about 90% sourced the article Assassins to show what a fully sourced article will look like. User:Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 17:14, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

And we already look like Wikipedia. We're a Wiki, it's the same code, lol. AgentValentine 17:44, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I thought that's why blocking system and protected pages are created? and the sources are clear: the game, the lineage movie and perhaps the official game guides. So we should remind the user that the source is AC or AC2 or whatever like every 3 sentences? not efficient, if I might say. Nevertheless, if the majority agree with this, go ahead. But I might as well say that I disagree... kind of. - SilverSummoner^TaLk 18:08, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

No, blocking systems and protected pages were designed to counter vandalism, not improve the reputation and efficiency of a wiki. Besides, only admins+ can protect pages and block users, whereas all users can source a sentance. I wouldn't say the sources are clear, I'm sure there are plenty of people who haven't heard about the DSi and iPhone games who might wonder where such information came from in Altair's article, sourcing provides them the answer. Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 18:15, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Leaning towards "Yay" because I'm used to this (except multiple referencing names) and because it would make a lot of sense to make this move. This, however, will clutter up the page source, a thing that I am mostly against, as it makes editing less seamless and more chaotic.

@Jasca: To counter, how are you definite that the normal editors will actually source their articles? When I was new to this wiki-thing, I just added stuff that I didn't even bother to reference even though it is true. It's more of a "what if the editors don't know how to use references" just like I did? It kinda became a restriction for me as an editor, but I eventually got used to it.

@SilverSummoner: Yeah, we didn't have refs in FFWiki because we left out all other media besides the games themselves (save for Advent Children and the FF7 Saga...) and because there are a LOT of Mods and Admins in there who would gladly revert inaccurate and stupid edits.

--Silver Mage Ω 09:17, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

@SilverMage: edit and revert is just a matter of clicking things. Even normal users can revert vandals if they want. though I agree that ffwiki have far more lot of admin and mods that makes the job easier.. - SilverSummoner^TaLk 10:17, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Silver Mage, i take it users on your wikis helped you to learn how to reference properly? It would be the same here, i'd see it as the responsibilty of more experienced users to help out newbies, and show them how to reference their material. It may be seen as a srestriction at first, but as you did, they get use to it. Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 12:25, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Woud i be intruding if i voted?Spoonodeath 12:37, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

No, it's a vote. Just do it in the sections above, not here. Jasca Ducato _{Council Chamber} ^{Assassination record} 13:42, February 26, 2010 (UTC)