User talk:ACsenior
 Welcome to the Order, ACsenior! |
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Feel free to contact me on my talkpage if you need anything. -- Vatsa1708 (Talk) 16:44, 2012 April 8
User page edits
Hello there :) I'd like to ask you to try and keep the edits to your userpage to a minimum. Please use the preview button to check everything, so that you won't have to edit your page three or more times right after each other. Thanks! Have a nice day and happy editing! :) Nesty Contact me! 20:32, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
I'll remember that ;)--ACsenior (talk) 20:36, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
Userpage
Hey ACSenior, I just saw that in your userpage the gallery tab is little effed up...for the gallery you can use this code: <gallery position="center" type="slideshow"> and then put either {{-}} or {{clear}} above the </tabber>. ;)--OdranoellutaTalk✲<choose><option>http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel-cinematic-universe/images/1/18/Sig.png</option></choose> 16:53, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
Thanks --ACsenior (talk) 17:10, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
ACsenior pls use the
to put it in Edward Kenways Page
For News Items
Just copy+paste the code below. The stuff you need to change is in CAPITALS.
{| class="collapsible collapsed" width="100%" style="border:2px solid white; background: #505050; -moz-border-radius:12px;"
!<font color="white">ARTICLE NAME/ETC.</font>
|-
|
CONTENT OF ARTICLE
|}
- kabutsu Enter the Animus The Crimson Polls II 20:35, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
Comment
You can leave me a message on my talk page if you wish to communicate with me directly, rather than posting a comment on a blog. And I cannot even fathom how my comment indicates I want to ban you. A quick Google search of the lyrics I posted should get you directly the song "Cars" by Gary Numan. Look at the person interviewed in your article, and you can figure out the rest. If I wished to ban you, I wouldn't be anything but direct about it. -- Master Sima Yi Talk 13:58, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
Consider my previous "situations" I prefer to stay at the lowest profile possible. No it's not the comment itself bot how "of topic"(related to previous "situations") it seemed, especially since I don't even know about the song and who Gary Numan is. I'll look at the person soon enough. That might be the case but I still think you do to be honest, that's because of the previous "situations". I don't want another "war" either so I'll just go off the grid again and just delete the comment since it was a misunderstanding.--ACsenior (talk) 14:15, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
You're making a nuisance out of nothing. I didn't even pay enough attention to who posted the comment to know it was you. Seriously, relax. If I have a problem with someone, I'll talk to them about it to get it out of the way. And I cut everyone way too much slack before I give them a ban, which I rarely give anyway. If I have a problem with you, you'll read it directly from me here. Now please stop antagonizing me. -- Master Sima Yi Talk 14:23, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
Return
Come back on the Grid hermano!!! Abelzorus Prime (talk) 18:43, September 23, 2015 (UTC)
Without my position as the "news guy" I feel kinda useless here, I'm nothing but a simple informant now dropping information here from time to time. I'll never work here the same way again, sadly. --ACsenior (talk) 14:28, September 24, 2015 (UTC)
- Hey ACsenior, you can always post news you find in the Syndicate news thread, if you want. Or start a general news thread yourself :) Crook The Constantine District 14:34, September 24, 2015 (UTC)
Checking In
Hey ACsenior, I noticed that you haven't been active for almost a month. I appreciated your assistance with the Assassins article, providing constructive advice, so I wanted to check-in to see if you're on hiatus. Although I have since published the "Corruptions" revision, as well as the "Methods" revision, I believe there are some parts that need refinement, and I'm not confident that these sections are ideal. I'm currently focused entirely on finishing long overdue content concerning Altaïr's Chronicles, but let me know if you feel like checking back in on the Assassins article. :) Sol Pacificus (talk) 10:04, March 10, 2016 (UTC)
Sorry about that. I'll read the "Corruptions" revision first, then move on to "Methods". Then you'll get some advises. --ACsenior (talk) 14:48, March 10, 2016 (UTC)
- It's fine if you're busy by the way, and I might not get around to it myself for a while. Sol Pacificus (talk) 01:26, March 11, 2016 (UTC)
RE:Corruption
I'm not sure if I should be responding to even just your initial response again here because that might make the discussion really hard to follow, but I have said so much that I wanted to have a place where I can brieflyfailed... >_< and clearly state my points. This is only in regards to just your "Corruption, Part 1".
- I'm not "taking a side" in regards to editing. I will confess that I align with the Assassins in my personal philosophy, but this does not affect my edits. I have taken enormous care not to include my personal beliefs of what the Assassins believe from what is cited in the sources of what the Assassins believe. (And actually ironically, the principle of NPOV and looking at multiple perspectives is core to Assassins anyways, Wikipedia is literally like a website created with an ideology identical to that of the Assassins).
- I think you missed my point that valuing neutrality was not a source of contention. It is something that we both strive to uphold, but we have different ideas on how to achieve it, but obviously, taking a side is not a way to go about it, and honestly, I was (and probably still am if I'm being honest) very irritated that you emphasized that so hard because that is not a problem here. I am extremely committed to showing multiple perspectives; that has been literally a founding part of my philosophy since I was 7 years old. Even if I wasn't dedicated to "not taking a side" in my work (and I am dedicated to not taking a side in my work), a true Assassin believes in showing multiple perspectives even ones that put them in a negative light anyways.
- The point of just that one paragraph you responded to was not even constructive criticism, it was just a cautionary note that we should proceed carefully and how we can mess this up, but I think for now, we are fine. I'm not opposed to including criticism of the Assassins, in case that is your misunderstanding. I wanted to explain how we can ironically become not-neutral in striving so hard to be neutral, by the Golden Mean Fallacy (which you have to make sure you read up on).
- Here's 'biggest point that I missed in my responses there and what necessitates that I respond here as well: it's not a matter of whether we should or should not be including different perspectives in the article. It's that correct wiki policy on NPOV is that we do not include perspectives that are our own. This is why Wookieepedians oppose "Controversy" articles. Even if our personal interpretations are valid, we simply aren't supposed to include them in the article. Criticisms are supposed to be entirely within an in-universe light in order to ensure that we aren't biased because even if we aren't biased, we will have our own personal opinions, and those opinions will inevitably leak into our writing when they shouldn't. We should not be including our personal interpretations. I strove very hard when I wrote the ideals of the Assassins not to include my own personal extrapolations, like how I believe that a true Assassin believes in universal love. I did not include that because it is not cited and is my own personal belief. Instead, I included that they believe in perspectivism and the idea that one shouldn't assume that he is unquestionably right because these are heavily supported by textual evidence. In the same way, I would only support Corruption sections in the Assassins and Templars articles because of cases where the characters in the game cited were corrupt cases. We shouldn't be included what we think are corrupt cases. I thoroughly believe that Ezio's destruction of Cappadocia was a horrendous violation of Assassin philosophy, but because it was not cited as such in-game, we technically should not be including it under "Corruption" because that is our personal interpretation. On the Templar side, I would almost certainly not support including Hitler in a Corruption section because while Assassins and all of humanity thinks he is evil (and he was), it's not cited as a case of Templar corruption or deviation from their ideology. Instead, the Borgias are a good inclusion because the Abstergo files clearly explain that the Templars remember them as a Dark Age of corruption, and the Borgias might even be the only case I would support including.
Okay, so as always I failed to be even remotely brief. But my initial responses to even just that first response of yours was more in reaction to your incorrect accusations of me being motivated by an allegiance with the Assassins and not constructive, so I felt the need to respond with something constructive, which is what has been written here. But maybe it's better to redirect our discussion here.
EDIT: I cut-out 50% of this message (with examples as such) before posting because I suck at being brief :( and you must be overwhelmed, so I should wait for your responses before proceeding further :P Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 01:52, September 26, 2016 (UTC)
Doesn't matter, I'll reply to everything either way. This and the expanded vesion too, only for us to cleaify a few things before we continue our discission. Or we can move it here.
- You misunderstanding my point(part of it at least). Your current writing of the Corruption section and the ideology and goals is eludently writen non-biased. I know you try to avoid putting your own interpretations in it, I've read everything and helped you with balencing it before you started. Makes two of us then as I too attempt to stay as true to the source as possible when helping. I guess the reason we gave the great balance is also because of our opposing ideals, as you've noticed I do agree with the moderate Templar philosophy.
- True, we do have a common goal here but different ways of archiving it. Exactly, it only appeared like you took a side, it was never my intention to disrespect. I know and I'm sorry for that, and I know you can.
- It wasn't mean to be constructive criticism but a note of caution because we should proceed carefully to avoid bias. It apreaed like you did, that's why I ephitized on taking a side. But as you've said, we're fine for now. We seem to be misunderstand each other then. I get that point now but you didn't get mine, I'm trying to avoid both of these: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEater
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants That goes for things like for example a moderate Templar section or a corrupt Assassin section, two of the most "controversial" section we'd have in the AC wiki. Regarding the Golden Mean Fallicy, the AC series is to black and white for us to end up doing that. They'll never be equally bad, the only way to reach such a point is if we do the two throes I just liked you. By creating our definitions rather than using established lore and citing direct sources. Like the words of an Assassin and Templar about their own idealogi.
- I don't disagree with that, seeing as personal opinions has no value in the wiki as it's meant to tell facts. Understandable that they avoid it but for AC it's needed because of it's focus on philosophy. It should be taken from an in-universe light as the rules and principles within the AC universe deside who that's what and why. I've no doubt you did and it's good work to, we just have to be cautious to not include our own interpetations but rather use the rules and principles of each order to constructively write how they operate, what they belive bad what their goals are. A slight disagreement here, while I'd prefer cited evidence for everything we also has to take to consideration their own principles and rules. If a brotherhood does violate the creed, then it is corrupt. Most Assassins world wide supported Achilles but that does't mean his brotherhood isn't corrupt. The War Letters shows the approval of his brotherhood by Assassins. We know for a fact his brotherhood violated the creed, it's a major case and don't need to be citied because it's obvious. The same apply to Jack and Abbas who work the same but not in such a great scale as Achilles brotherhood. There's a difference between the two Thropes above resulting in fan-definitions and usining established lore. So despite Ezio's actions not being cited as corruption, he still is according to their own rules and principles. That includes the assassination of Tarik, the Harbor Riot, the destruction of of Cappadocia and the Great Chain. Actually the Templars page need 3 sections. A corruption page with the Borgia as the example seeing as it's the best explanation of corrupt Templars. Corrupt Templars are as stated trough the series, people who use the order for personal gain and doing things for personal gain goes against the orders interest. For the extremist Templars we can use the MD Templars who wants to enslave mind and are willing to do anything to accomplish their goals. The WW2 Templars with Hitler as the obvious extreme example. Or the Parisian Rite lead by Germain. For moderates that don't want to eradicate freedom but merly detest it(how unity is possible) you have the Byzantine Templars, the Colonial Rite, the Carribean Rite and the Parisian Rite lead by the De la Serre family. As said, I'd prefer if both pages does in depth in it's sections. We can have examples of traditionalist Assassins as well under the ideals and goals part but what's also missing is an ideals and goals part regarding the corrupt Assassins. --ACsenior (talk) 15:32, September 26, 2016 (UTC)
- NPOV is far more nuanced than we might think. For example, Ezio's violation of the creed in Cappadocia isn't sourced, but it's a logical deduction because (a) Assassins expressly say "don't kill innocents" and (b) he got civilians killed. I think logical deductions such as these should be allowed, but I'm not sure if you see how it is less obvious in other cases such as the riot in the market and the Destruction of the Great Chain. The 50% of my response here I cut out covered this, so here it goes. Besides the destruction of Derinkuyu, I really want you to understand just how debatable most other instances are. My stance is that we should actually just be very strict with what we include, such that we only include (a) >u>examples that can't be debated by logical deduction (b) examples that are heavily cited as corruption and presented as a matter of internal conflict & strife whether or not it can be debated or not. Aside from the f
- It can't be debated that François Mackandal violated the creed because he sought to massacre the white population of Haiti indiscriminately and his letters show his conflict in ideals with the rest of the Assassins.
- While Pierre Bellec's desire to purge the Assassins he disagrees is apparently noted by Shaun to have been debatable, he did teamkill (which should count as killing innocents... but maybe that's why Shaun said it was found to be a debatable case), and it is presented in the game as a source of great conflict since Arno ends up fighting Pierre to the death.
- The assassination of Tarik Barleti, however, which I introduced in spite of finding it debatable... While theoretically an Assassin should only use assassination as a last resort, and thus great care must be made for investigations, it is possible that this is more of an error in judgment than a moral violation. That is to say, Ezio thought he had investigated enough, just as Arno as a noob killed Chrétien Lafrenière erroneously because he was too hasty. While Ezio should not have been so hasty, it can be argued that he just made a mistake rather than a full-blown corrupt violation of the creed. That is to say, he hadn't meant to anymore than Arno had meant to kill the wrong person, and I think it's more alike to a soldier making the wrong move that gets people killed, such as his allies. Perhaps a soldier misidentifies an ally squad for the enemy in the dark of night, for instance. At the same time, mistakes that cost innocent people their lives can be argued as corruption, especially with management such as the Charge of the Light Brigade. But my point isn't whether or not this was a clear act of corruption or not, but the fact that it is debatable if we look at different perspectives of this. Now you might say that it is presented as a major plot point, but it does not become a major source of internal strife within the Assassin ranks nor is it cited as corruption. It could or could not be considered as a reasonable mistake since the evidence against Tarik was compelling given Ezio saw him strike a deal to sell weapons to the Templars. I do not think it should matter whether or not it is a reasonable mistake or a case of Ezio's corruption or not, only that the fact it is debatable,I would rather be safe and not include.
- Rashid ad-din Sinan was seen as a traitor to the principles of the Assassins by the Assassins, and his ideology was exposed as one completely in contradiction with that of the Assassins. It was also the the principle conflict in the game, so it should be noted.
- The Destruction of the Great Chain, that's where we really see ourselves approaching our own personal interpretations. The fact that we can even argue whether or not that constitutes an example shows that it shouldn't be included. Are military targets acceptable or not? We shouldn't be arguing this. Maybe it was a violation, but what should be important is whether it obviously is, as obvious as killing an innocent person when your creed explicitly forbids it. Your argument that it is, I think, stems from the fact that the Ottomans were not necessarily Templars and because the Great Chain does serve to defend the city itself. Honestly, when I played that mission, I was thinking to myself that in order to get to Cappadocia to stop the Templars, the Great Chain has to be destroyed, but it was only a temporary casualty as it can be rebuilt. The expenses might be heavy for the Ottomans, but these things just happen in conflicts, we make some sacrifices, the most important thing is that civilians weren't harmed in the end. So the question is, are military targets acceptable or not? Do they constitute as killing innocents when the military targets are in opposition against you, but it is not because they are Templars or aware that you are an Assassin? It is so debatable that I just think that if we even bother to include it, it would certainly be because of our personal interpretation. It's not a simple matter enough to be a case of logically deducing it as a case of corruption. Not like "Creed says don't kill innocents, you willfully kill innocents".
- I think the Lisbon earthquake was absolutely just a tragic case of misunderstandings and poor communication. Achilles assumed it was an artifact (which if consistent with all other Assassins, he had meant to find to destroy or hide from Templars though we don't know for sure). He never imagined that it could just be some weird "seismic tree". He sent Shay, who didn't know how Pieces of Eden looked like or what to explain to retrieve it, and he accidentally triggered the earthquake. Shay comes back in a fury, but Achilles isn't open-minded enough to put two and two together with the Haiti earthquake (note that Vendredi had been murdered so the Assassins never learned that Vendredi had reached the site before he was killed). I'm not going to go over the whole scenario again, but my verdict is that Achilles and Shay were insanely immature in this scenario and that was the problem. Their mutual failure to communicate and listen to each other's side, how it was just a tragic accident, and their desire to demonize one another and make each other look like the absolute bad guy in what was just a tragic accident is just idiotic. Now, it can be argued that Achilles' attitude violated the teachings of the Assassins, but I think in such a case it's more similar to how even Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn "violated" the Jedi code by developing romantic feelings for Siri Tachi and Tahl respectively. They're human beings who we can't expect will get their emotions right every time, which is why I think that Achilles' reaction while unjustifiable, is understandable because it's no different from the way teachers and doctors and bosses in our society are sometimes too close-minded in interacting with students, patients, and employees' struggles. I do find such teachers, doctors, and bosses to be wrong to the point of being immoral, but I know that at the end of the day, they're not evil and didn't mean to hurt anyone. They're just ignorant and not mature enough to be open-minded. The Lisbon earthquake I absolutely don't see as a matter of corruption so much as a great noob mistake on Achilles' part. He was a new Mentor who was so inexperienced he didn't teach his apprentices correctly and didn't take necessary precautions and then became mentally unhinged because of the death of his wife and son. HOWEVER, I do think it should be included in spite of my enormous objections because it is a central plot point to Rogue, hence this shows what I mean by personal interpretation vs. what is cited. I disagree with this so much, but it is too central to ignore.
- Kesegowaase's terror assault against Albany should be included because it's a clear, simple case of harming innocent lives, and it is one of the pieces of evidence central to the game of Rogue of Assassin corruption.
- With the case of Ezio causing that riot at the Arsenal, I disagree with his action and personally do see that as a violation of Assassin's creed, but to be honest, I didn't want to include it because I wasn't sure that even traditional Assassins saw rioting as a violation even while I think it most certainly is. Connor started riots with Stephane Chapheau. Hence, it is a case of us imposing our personal interpretations. Is its inclusion as a violation sourced? It's simply not as straightforward as "don't kill innocents, willfully kill innocents". It is a case of "don't kill innocents, risked innocent lives by galvanizing them into an uprising". From one perspective, Ezio manipulated the people into risking their lives for his own agenda. On the other hand, his likely perspective is that he is helping their lives by fighting the Templars, and if they hadn't already been downtrodden enough to want to engage in an uprising and fight for themselves, they probably won't have been triggered in such a way. From his perspective, he was just giving them the courage to take action into their own hands. I do disagree with this method because I oppose riots, period, but from his perspective, he probably saw it no different as political activists would in rallying people for protests. I support only peaceful protests, but then the target of their uprising was the Arsenal, a military target. Yet again, the market was also damaged. But then this might be countered that the damage to the market was a minor loss for the greater good. You see, it is debatable enough I can debate with myself on this matter, and my point stands that I don't think we should be arguing whether it constitutes as corruption or not. If it is debatable and is not cited as a case of corruption, we shouldn't include it.
So those were some examples. I always wanted to point out that this is why I thought that perhaps it may be better to rename it as "deviations" or "Examples of Violations" which I think allows us to be more technical and objective, since we are declaring whether an action was in violation or not, not whether it was corrupted which is a personal judgment of the action's morality. I think the only case for using "Corruption" is that it is a more succinct way to word it, but it is less objective. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 22:01, September 26, 2016 (UTC)