User talk:关云

Welcome to the Order, 关云!

Welcome to the Assassin's Creed Wiki! We hope you enjoy your stay, and we look forward to working with you!

Have you something to say?

You can always ask our beloved administrators! Our local staff members can always lend a hand! You can also visit the wiki's community portal! We also have the Discord if you're ever in the mood for a chat!

We seek unity, stability and order.

Not sure where to start? You can always help out by sharing what you know on some of our stubs. Got some useful pictures? Share them with us on these articles. Got a useful concept for an article? Why not help out in some articles in need of a revamp? Always remember to sign your messages on talk pages with four tildes (~~~~) to avoid any confusion between users. You can also refer to the wiki's help pages if you're ever in doubt. Please remember to read our wiki policies to avoid gaining any unnecessary attention.

We wish you safety and peace on your future endeavors. Happy Editing!

Feel free to contact me on my talkpage if you need anything. Sol Pacificus (talk) 14:51, May 2, 2019 (UTC)

Greeting

NIce to meet you, Lucky Kwan!

:) —unsigned comment by 一个赛艇门‎ (talk · contr)

Mao Zedong being a Templar

Hello Guan Yun, I noticed that you removed all references to Mao Zedong being a Templar. I understand that you did this in good faith because you were waiting on citations for those, and we entirely forgot about it. The actual source was an interview that one of our admins, Master Sima Yi, had with Jeffrey Yohalem. It was completely our fault for not providing citations for this, which is a bit difficult because I have to find the exact podcast where this interview was conducted. I've reverted your edits for now, and I would ask you to please wait one more week, and if I don't provide citations then, feel free to remove the references to Mao being a Templar again. I simply forgot all about it, but your edits helped remind us. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 01:56, June 16, 2020 (UTC)

Fine. Settled then.关云 (talk) 02:03, June 16, 2020 (UTC)

So I got in touch with Master Sima Yi regarding this, and he informed me that the interview he had with Jeffrey Yohalem came after Loomer's podcast which can be found on YouTube. Because of this, it isn't in the actual video and cannot be cited. Well, technically speaking, personal interviews off-camera can be cited, but to keep things uncontroversial, it's probably best we don't do that. Given this, he has already removed the reference to Mao being a Templar on the page, and I have followed suit on the pages China and Shanghai Rite of the Templar Order.

On a site-note, think some of the information you added to the Chinese Civil War goes too much detail into things we only know from real-world history, and we try to minimize details like that, so I will have to review that article.

Let me know if you have any other questions or concerns! Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:36, June 17, 2020 (UTC)

I explained the detail time and events related to that because I edited original contents about the time of the Second Chinese Civil War. Since I shouldn't add too many details that can only be known from real history, I agree to remove those contents. However, if something related to the real world is mentioned, I think it should be accurate.

As for the issue that Mao Zedong being a Templar, it's really sensitive for Chinese netizens. We remove related contents after we confirmed that there is no citation can be found. The expression "the puppet of Templar" does hurt the feeling of Chinese mainland netizens. I think personal interviews off-camera can be cited, but the content related to that shouldn't appear in the main content, since it is not the public official setting about the celebrity.

Now I have no more questions or concerns. Thank you for helping me.关云 (talk) 01:58, June 18, 2020 (UTC)

Glad to help! If you don't mind me asking, I was wondering what is it about that expression that hurts the feelings of Mainlanders exactly? I would like to understand. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:54, June 19, 2020 (UTC)

Usually the expressions and topics hurting Mainlanders' feelings can devided into following types:

• Denying and ignoring the contribution of China (contribution in all historical periods are included).
• Insulting the image of China (especially insulting the national image of PRC) and the revolutionaries of China. From so-called Opium War to the founding of PRC, Chinese people had suffered from invasion and corrupted useless government for total 109 years. It is Sun Yat-sen and his fellow comrades first and then CPC who help Chinese people out. That's why Mainlanders can't accept Mao Zedong being a Templar or Sun Yat-sen being the Grand Master of Chinese Rite, since Templars are always villain in the series.
• Disagreeing the ideal of "One Nation, Two Systems", supporting regions like Hong Kong, Taiwan, Inner Mongol, Tibet and Xinjiang to be independent. These actions or related expressions intolerable for Mainlanders. Fundamentally speaking，region conflicts are the results of invasion wars and civil wars. We can't accept such expressions because we have been hurt in old days.
• Serious mistakes in history narration and the beautify invasion. It's also the result of invasion wars.

Altogether, the offensive expressions and topics will be described as insulting China (辱华) in SNS of mainland. Just like topics and expressions about races in Western world, it's our "political correctness". Hope my explanation can help you understand more about Mainlanders.关云 (talk) 04:01, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Guan Yun, I figured that Mao Zedong was associated with the villains of this franchise might be the reason, but my confusion lay in the fact that many Mainlanders I've met abhor themes like "freedom", "free will", and "democracy" which are all core principles of the Assassins. These loaded words are associated with Western culture, and I've met many Mainlanders who think that belief in them is the result of being brainwashed by Western society. Hence, my expectation was that Mainland fans of Assassin's Creed would actually agree with the Templars, who preach that world peace can only be achieved if an elite group of men "guide" nations through surveillance and strongman rule—along with the coercive measures that comes with it.

Many Mainlanders I've met greatly admire Mao exactly because he didn't approve of democracy or human rights. For example, a former childhood friend of mine sees Mao as his idol, but it is because he believes that the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the massive death toll that resulted from them were great events which were necessary for the industrialization of China.

Obviously today, the party line is to introduce a social credit system, enforce strict censorship, and use heavy-handed methods against all dissent, even entirely peaceful ones. The Templars would support this because they believe that they have the "wisdom" to judge all the people they govern, and if people should just obey and listen to this "wisdom" without questioning, there would be world peace. This is the justification and logic of the CCP today, and it is the same justification and logic of the Templars. The creators of Assassin's Creed didn't always wanted to show that the Templars were pure evil either. Instead, they wanted to show their reasoning and make us ask ourselves, is there some truth to it?

In any case, it is a fact that many of the ways the Templars act in the fiction of Assassin's Creed is the same way that the CCP has treated its people in the past, and in Tibet, Xinjiang, and Hong Kong now. Simply speaking, I expected that Mainlanders who respect Mao will agree with Templar philosophy, see Templars as the real heroes, and believe that Assassins are only portrayed as heroes because Ubisoft is a company coming from a Western perspective. That's why I didn't think that Mao being a Templar would be offensive.

I hope this is not too shocking for you. It is clear that there must be some presumption that I had wrong. For example, maybe you guys do not think that Assassins' idea of free will and democracy is wrong, so actually agree that Assassins are heroes? Maybe you guys think that the Templars are too extreme and that Mao's errors are exaggerated? In any case, thank you for taking the time to share the sensitivities of Mainland people. To clarify, I am actually Hong Konger, and as you probably know, there are a lot of misunderstandings between the Mainland and Hong Kong. If you don't mind, I would also like to take this opportunity to clear up some of those misunderstandings on our end too. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 05:49, June 20, 2020 (UTC)