Talk:Liberalis Circulum

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Move to Liberalis Circulum

Since we have all the Templar and Assassin branches at their official names, such as "Chinese Brotherhood of Assassins" or "West Indies Brotherhood of Assassins" or "Ottoman Brotherhood of Assassins, shouldn't we also have this page at its official name? There is an Italian Brotherhood of Assassins, but the one of the Roman times is a distinct branch and also predates the development of Assassin Guilds by Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad. Thus, its official name here is Liberalis Circulum, even if it's not in the same format as the official names of he later guilds, it's still its official name and therefore it would be consistent to have this page moved to Liberalis Circulum even if it's a foreign word. The Essential Guide doesn't confirm if it was also known as the Roman Brotherhood even though the Egyptian Brotherhood of Assassins and the Persian Brotherhood of Assassins bore those names (perhaps applied by modern Assassins retroactively). Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 18:00, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

I suppose for the sake of consistency it would be preferable to call them the Roman Brotherhood of Assassins. If it helps, the statue of Leonius in Assassin's Creed II explicitly identifies him as a "Roman Assassin". The Wikia Editor (talk) 01:32, February 19, 2017 (UTC)

I would actually disagree with calling them the Roman Brotherhood of Assassins because not only is that not confirmed to have been one of their official names, but we also know their official name to be Liberalis Circulum. In fact, as far as I know, they didn't go by the name "Assassin" themselves at the time, though I'm sure later Assassins applied that name retroactively to them. I think the only issue with using Liberalis Circulum is that the name is in Latin. I personally would prefer using the English translation "Circle of Liberals", but as a translation, it might not be an ideal choice. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 01:18, February 19, 2017 (UTC)

I agree that they probably didn't call themselves Assassins, as the word itself did not even exist at the time. We do, however, know that the term was used by modern Assassins to refer to them as such. I don't really have a problem with the name being in Latin, we use untranslated names when it is appropriate (e.g. Château Clique) and this would be such a case. Another thing I just thought about is the possibility that the Liberalis Circulum was merely a public front for the Roman Assassins, or at least a faction within their group. Pretty much how the Narodnaya Volya was a faction of the Russian Brotherhood. The Wikia Editor (talk) 02:39, February 19, 2017 (UTC)

Hm, the page has just been moved to Roman Brotherhood of Assassins. This is really uncomfortable for me, as this will now mean that we would have to add a "conjectural name" tag when it has a canonically verified name (Liberalis Circulum). Actually come to think of it, perhaps we should've already added that tag even with "Roman Assassins". Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 15:54, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

Technically, "Roman Assassins" is not a conjectural name because the members of this group were indeed referred to as such by modern Assassins. They were also indirectly referred to as the Roman Brotherhood in the Assassin Brotherhood database entry in Syndicate. I guess it's a matter of whether we want to be consistent with the naming scheme of the other Brotherhoods. The Wikia Editor (talk) 17:38, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I honestly find that reference to the branch in the Roman Empire in the Syndicate database entry to be a bit too indirect to say that it was referred to as the "Roman Brotherhood". Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 17:13, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia refers to Aquilus as being a member of the "Assassin Brotherhood from Lugdunum", which unfortunately is not very helpful. The Wikia Editor (talk) 20:13, April 6, 2017 (UTC)

I failed to move it to Liberalis Circulum because that page already exists. However, if the trivia point that the name is incorrect Latin is correct, then I change my mind and say we should hold off on moving it to that name, canonical or not, for it could be in error. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 08:38, August 2, 2017 (UTC)

Nevermind, after looking a little at Latin grammar, I'm fairly certain that we are meant to inflect the name according to whether we use it as a subject, object, etc. In other words, even if sources give it as Liberalis Circulum, the direct object form (assuming in the correct scenario of it being used as a direct object), we should be using the nominative form of Liberalis Circulus. It should be seen as the same name just modified based on grammatical rules. We can easily move this to Liberalis Circulus because I don't think that page exists yet, but I wanted to double-check this with you. Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 09:04, August 2, 2017 (UTC)

Although I agree with you about the use of the Latin name, we still have the problem of it not being directly sourced. I suspect that Ubisoft's use of the name is similar to their incorrect use of the names of the Zhengde and Jiajing Emperors. I'm also still somewhat iffy about using the contemporary name for the Brotherhood. The Wikia Editor (talk) 12:26, August 2, 2017 (UTC)

I personally think that a different grammatical case of a name can still be appropriately sourced to the source material (though I forgot which comic it specifically was). I think if we're seeing this from the perspective of Latin, not English, different grammatical forms of a word or name does not indicate distinct words or names. However, you are right to reference the error with the Ming dynasty emperor names (which by the way I'm so surprised you paid attention to that o_O because I thought no one did!). Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 10:58, August 2, 2017 (UTC)

I wanted to revive (necro? xD) this discussion to say that if there are no objections, I am moving this page to Liberalis Circulus next Sunday. Since 2017, we had established that grammatical corrections to canonical names is valid and does not equate to using a conjectural name. In otherwise, Liberalis Circulus is perfectly valid as a canonical name even if the source gives Liberalis Circulum because it is grammatically incorrect. If Roman Brotherhood really is a conjectural name, then this page should be moved to Liberalis Circulus. I understand that there were also questions before regarding whether that name extends to the whole branch or not, but I am not comfortable keeping this page on a conjectural name regardless, in the same vein as Iltani's Order which is what reminded me of this since we're also under talks to move that back to "Babylonian Brotherhood". Sol Pacificus^(Cyfiero) 01:40, May 18, 2020 (UTC)