Talk:Qin Shi Huang - Revision history

imported>Sol Pacificus: Sol Pacificus moved page Talk:Zhao Zheng to Talk:Qin Shi Huang over redirect: I explained why we are making an exception for Qin Shi Huang in the extensive new naming policy discussion.

2022-02-11T18:20:38Z

Sol Pacificus moved page Talk:Zhao Zheng to Talk:Qin Shi Huang over redirect: I explained why we are making an exception for Qin Shi Huang in the extensive new naming policy discussion.

← Older revision	Revision as of 20:20, 11 February 2022
(No difference)

imported>Darman36: Darman36 moved page Talk:Qin Shi Huang to Talk:Zhao Zheng: Using personal name per Sol's decision re: Xuanzong of Tang/Li Longji

2022-02-11T17:15:18Z

Darman36 moved page Talk:Qin Shi Huang to Talk:Zhao Zheng: Using personal name per Sol's decision re: Xuanzong of Tang/Li Longji

← Older revision	Revision as of 19:15, 11 February 2022
(No difference)

imported>Master Sima Yi: /* About Qin Shi Huang's Ally */

2020-11-27T18:11:38Z

About Qin Shi Huang's Ally

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:11, 27 November 2020
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	::The Official Collection is not a primary source, unlike the Essential Guide cited just before that: ''While the Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide refrains from calling the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar group and only categorizes the Order of the Ancients as such''. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 17:06, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		::The Official Collection is not a primary source, unlike the Essential Guide cited just before that: ''While the Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide refrains from calling the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar group and only categorizes the Order of the Ancients as such''. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 17:06, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

	There is nothing to indicate that there were several proto-Templar groups, or specifically more than one proto-Templar group active at the same time. You have a source as recent as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yk7Zo3joOk&ab_channel=Ubisoft this video] (narrated by a script writer, which the OP of this section wants to emphasize) stating that the Templars were originally called the Order of the Ancients, there is no evidence of the Templars succeeding more than one group. The notion that there "might" be multiple simultaneous proto-Templar groups, or that the Order of the Ancients cannot be in China for historical reasons, borders on original research and fan fiction, and cannot be sourced. There is only a singular precursor named for the Templar Order, the Order of the Ancients, and to say that there might have been multiple is speculation. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 17:15, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		There is nothing to indicate that there were several proto-Templar groups, or specifically more than one proto-Templar group active at the same time. You have a source as recent as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yk7Zo3joOk&ab_channel=Ubisoft this video] (narrated by a script writer, which the OP of this section wants to emphasize) stating that the Templars were originally called the Order of the Ancients, there is no evidence of the Templars succeeding more than one group. As Soranin pointed out, ''The Official Collection'' is not a primary source and it does not trump other sources that state the contrary. Additionally, I don't want to state things here as I know some of the other participants of this discussion did not play or finish the game, but ''Valhalla'' also goes into further detail on the origins of the Templars. The notion that there "might" be multiple simultaneous proto-Templar groups, or that the Order of the Ancients cannot be in China for historical reasons, borders on original research and fan fiction, and cannot be sourced. There is only a singular precursor named for the Templar Order, the Order of the Ancients, and to say that there might have been multiple is speculation. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 17:15, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

imported>Master Sima Yi: /* About Qin Shi Huang's Ally */

2020-11-27T17:15:15Z

About Qin Shi Huang's Ally

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:15, 27 November 2020
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	:is it? So why does [[Cult of Kosmos]]'s '''Connection with the Templars''' write: ''the Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection does consider the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar organization.[19]'' Is this a mistake?[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]])[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:is it? So why does [[Cult of Kosmos]]'s '''Connection with the Templars''' write: ''the Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection does consider the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar organization.[19]'' Is this a mistake?[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]])[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
	::The Official Collection is not a primary source, unlike the Essential Guide cited just before that: ''While the Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide refrains from calling the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar group and only categorizes the Order of the Ancients as such''. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 17:06, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		::The Official Collection is not a primary source, unlike the Essential Guide cited just before that: ''While the Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide refrains from calling the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar group and only categorizes the Order of the Ancients as such''. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 17:06, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

			There is nothing to indicate that there were several proto-Templar groups, or specifically more than one proto-Templar group active at the same time. You have a source as recent as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yk7Zo3joOk&ab_channel=Ubisoft this video] (narrated by a script writer, which the OP of this section wants to emphasize) stating that the Templars were originally called the Order of the Ancients, there is no evidence of the Templars succeeding more than one group. The notion that there "might" be multiple simultaneous proto-Templar groups, or that the Order of the Ancients cannot be in China for historical reasons, borders on original research and fan fiction, and cannot be sourced. There is only a singular precursor named for the Templar Order, the Order of the Ancients, and to say that there might have been multiple is speculation. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 17:15, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

imported>Soranin: /* About Qin Shi Huang's Ally */

2020-11-27T17:06:25Z

About Qin Shi Huang's Ally

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:06, 27 November 2020
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	:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
	:is it? So why does [[Cult of Kosmos]]'s '''Connection with the Templars''' write: ''the Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection does consider the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar organization.[19]'' Is this a mistake?[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]])[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:is it? So why does [[Cult of Kosmos]]'s '''Connection with the Templars''' write: ''the Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection does consider the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar organization.[19]'' Is this a mistake?[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]])[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
			::The Official Collection is not a primary source, unlike the Essential Guide cited just before that: ''While the Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide refrains from calling the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar group and only categorizes the Order of the Ancients as such''. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 17:06, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

imported>诸葛彻: /* About Qin Shi Huang's Ally */

2020-11-27T16:58:44Z

About Qin Shi Huang's Ally

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:58, 27 November 2020
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	Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars [[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars [[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
	:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
			:is it? So why does [[Cult of Kosmos]]'s '''Connection with the Templars''' write: ''the Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection does consider the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar organization.[19]'' Is this a mistake?[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]])[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

imported>Soranin: /* About Qin Shi Huang's Ally */

2020-11-27T16:50:10Z

About Qin Shi Huang's Ally

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:50, 27 November 2020
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	Perhaps Sol has forgotten one thing. Cult of Kosmos is also considered to be the proto-Templar organization, so we cannot simply think that all the early Templar organizations are called the Order of the Ancients. There is no direct official evidence that this type of organization in the Qin Dynasty that was called as the Order of the Ancients.		Perhaps Sol has forgotten one thing. Cult of Kosmos is also considered to be the proto-Templar organization, so we cannot simply think that all the early Templar organizations are called the Order of the Ancients. There is no direct official evidence that this type of organization in the Qin Dynasty that was called as the Order of the Ancients.
	Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars [[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars [[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
			:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

imported>诸葛彻: /* About Qin Shi Huang's Ally */

2020-11-27T16:49:11Z

About Qin Shi Huang's Ally

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:49, 27 November 2020
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	:All in all, this is just another effect of the ambiguous retcon by Ubisoft and the absence of strong sources clarifying this topic. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:All in all, this is just another effect of the ambiguous retcon by Ubisoft and the absence of strong sources clarifying this topic. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
	Perhaps Sol has forgotten one thing. Cult of Kosmos is also considered to be the proto-Templar organization, so we cannot simply think that all the early Templar organizations are called the Order of the Ancients. There is no direct official evidence that this type of organization in the Qin Dynasty that was called as the Order of the Ancients.		Perhaps Sol has forgotten one thing. Cult of Kosmos is also considered to be the proto-Templar organization, so we cannot simply think that all the early Templar organizations are called the Order of the Ancients. There is no direct official evidence that this type of organization in the Qin Dynasty that was called as the Order of the Ancients.
	Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars [[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

imported>诸葛彻: /* About Qin Shi Huang's Ally */

2020-11-27T16:48:21Z

About Qin Shi Huang's Ally

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:48, 27 November 2020
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	:All in all, this is just another effect of the ambiguous retcon by Ubisoft and the absence of strong sources clarifying this topic. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:All in all, this is just another effect of the ambiguous retcon by Ubisoft and the absence of strong sources clarifying this topic. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
	Perhaps Sol has forgotten one thing. Cult of Kosmos is also considered to be the proto-Templar organization, so we cannot simply think that all the early Templar organizations are called the Order of the Ancients. There is no direct official evidence that this type of organization in the Qin Dynasty that was called as the Order of the Ancients.		Perhaps Sol has forgotten one thing. Cult of Kosmos is also considered to be the proto-Templar organization, so we cannot simply think that all the early Templar organizations are called the Order of the Ancients. There is no direct official evidence that this type of organization in the Qin Dynasty that was called as the Order of the Ancients.
	Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars		Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

imported>诸葛彻: /* About Qin Shi Huang's Ally */

2020-11-27T16:48:02Z

About Qin Shi Huang's Ally

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:48, 27 November 2020
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	:I do wonder if, by strict sourcing though, it would be more appropriate to use 'Templar' not 'Order of the Ancients', treating 'Templar' as a name that can be applied retrospectively to the organization prior to them taking on the 'Templar' name during the Crusades. We have seen this being the case by many characters in the games. The logic behind this edit, to repeat, is likely that since 'Order of the Ancients' has been established as an older name for the Templars before the Crusades, it would be more accurate to use the right name for the time period. However, even if older sources establish that Qin Shi Huang worked with a Templar organization (and not, as you say, a ''proto-''-Templar organization), I think there may still be the question if it was known by the name Order of the Ancients in this period of China. I would like other editors here to address this question because I know at least a few of us think it is more accurrate to refer to Wei Yu as an Assassin, not a Hidden One.		:I do wonder if, by strict sourcing though, it would be more appropriate to use 'Templar' not 'Order of the Ancients', treating 'Templar' as a name that can be applied retrospectively to the organization prior to them taking on the 'Templar' name during the Crusades. We have seen this being the case by many characters in the games. The logic behind this edit, to repeat, is likely that since 'Order of the Ancients' has been established as an older name for the Templars before the Crusades, it would be more accurate to use the right name for the time period. However, even if older sources establish that Qin Shi Huang worked with a Templar organization (and not, as you say, a ''proto-''-Templar organization), I think there may still be the question if it was known by the name Order of the Ancients in this period of China. I would like other editors here to address this question because I know at least a few of us think it is more accurrate to refer to Wei Yu as an Assassin, not a Hidden One.
	:All in all, this is just another effect of the ambiguous retcon by Ubisoft and the absence of strong sources clarifying this topic. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:All in all, this is just another effect of the ambiguous retcon by Ubisoft and the absence of strong sources clarifying this topic. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 15:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
			Perhaps Sol has forgotten one thing. Cult of Kosmos is also considered to be the proto-Templar organization, so we cannot simply think that all the early Templar organizations are called the Order of the Ancients. There is no direct official evidence that this type of organization in the Qin Dynasty that was called as the Order of the Ancients.
			Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:06, 27 November 2020
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	:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
	:is it? So why does [[Cult of Kosmos]]'s '''Connection with the Templars''' write: ''the Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection does consider the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar organization.[19]'' Is this a mistake?[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]])[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:is it? So why does [[Cult of Kosmos]]'s '''Connection with the Templars''' write: ''the Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection does consider the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar organization.[19]'' Is this a mistake?[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]])[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
			::The Official Collection is not a primary source, unlike the Essential Guide cited just before that: ''While the Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide refrains from calling the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar group and only categorizes the Order of the Ancients as such''. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 17:06, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:58, 27 November 2020
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	Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars [[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		Therefore, under the premise of pursuing accuracy and reducing disputes, it is more appropriate to adopt the statement in Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia —— the early Templars [[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
	:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)		:The Cult of Kosmos is not a proto-Templar organization. - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 16:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
			:is it? So why does [[Cult of Kosmos]]'s '''Connection with the Templars''' write: ''the Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection does consider the Cult of Kosmos a proto-Templar organization.[19]'' Is this a mistake?[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]])[[User:诸葛彻\|诸葛彻]] ([[User talk:诸葛彻\|talk]]) 16:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)