Talk:Persian Brotherhood of Assassins - Revision history

Soranin at 15:14, 17 June 2026

2026-06-17T15:14:34Z

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	:But there are also multiple other complications to consider. On the question of whether the Assassins of Alamut are the same as the Levantine Brotherhood, the confusion stems from the two predating Altaïr's guild system. We have a temptation to refer to the Assassins from the time of Hassan-i Sabbah to Altaïr as the "Levantine Brotherhood". This is the practice of ''The Essential Guide'', but it is retrospective. In the game guide of ''Assassin's Creed'', it is explained that Al Mualim left Hassan the Younger in Alamut to establish his own autonomous branch based in Masyaf. It is unclear whether this was a schism or if Al Mualim was merely helping Hassan the Younger to expand the order as the Polo brothers did. It is unclear if the two became ''de jure'' separate branches, but we at least know that they were ''de facto'' independent of one another. It thus makes things confusing to treat them as the same unit, with even the Alamut Assassins being called the "Levantine Brotherhood" when Alamut is not geographically situated in the Levant. We even have extended the usage of the name "Levantine Brotherhood" to encompassing the activities of the Assassins in that region in ''Revelations'', as part of the Mediterranean Defense game feature, but this practice of ours has not been canonically verified.		:But there are also multiple other complications to consider. On the question of whether the Assassins of Alamut are the same as the Levantine Brotherhood, the confusion stems from the two predating Altaïr's guild system. We have a temptation to refer to the Assassins from the time of Hassan-i Sabbah to Altaïr as the "Levantine Brotherhood". This is the practice of ''The Essential Guide'', but it is retrospective. In the game guide of ''Assassin's Creed'', it is explained that Al Mualim left Hassan the Younger in Alamut to establish his own autonomous branch based in Masyaf. It is unclear whether this was a schism or if Al Mualim was merely helping Hassan the Younger to expand the order as the Polo brothers did. It is unclear if the two became ''de jure'' separate branches, but we at least know that they were ''de facto'' independent of one another. It thus makes things confusing to treat them as the same unit, with even the Alamut Assassins being called the "Levantine Brotherhood" when Alamut is not geographically situated in the Levant. We even have extended the usage of the name "Levantine Brotherhood" to encompassing the activities of the Assassins in that region in ''Revelations'', as part of the Mediterranean Defense game feature, but this practice of ours has not been canonically verified.

	:Furthermore, we have the complex case of the Chinese Brotherhood. From the [[~~User blog:Sol Pacificus/Q&A with~~ Assassin's Creed: ~~Dynasty's author~~ Xu Xianzhe\|Q&A with ''Dynasty''{{'}}s author]], we know that the name "Assassin" was applied more broadly among the Chinese. It became an underground mantle by which newer generations of ''[[youxia\|xiake]]'' could repeatedly readopt even after a previous group of Assassins had been purged. The Chinese name for the Assassin, ''Cike'', predates the Hidden Ones' presence in China. To reconcile this with the mainstream canon, I surmise that the original ''Cike'' in the Warring States period would have been a different and indigenous group. At some point, the Hidden Ones arrived in China, and the ''Cike'' became subsumed into the Hidden Ones of China, and in the Chinese language, the names ''Cike'' and Assassin (i.e. the name from Persian) became identical. But being the frequent target of purges, in Li E's time, there was another lull in their presence in China. The Hidden Ones of the Great Desert were a ''separate'' group of Assassins who operated in China's periphery. By chance, Li E became one of them then later adopted the legacy of the earlier generations of Hidden Ones/Assassins in China as well under Pei Min's guidance. He founded the Hidden Ones of the Great Tang, another group of Chinese Assassins. Thus, with this complicated history, it can be suggested that the article on the Chinese Brotherhood is actually about the history of multiple different groups of Assassins in China across the ages.		:Furthermore, we have the complex case of the Chinese Brotherhood. From the [[Assassin's Creed Wiki:General Archives/Interview with Xu Xianzhe\|Q&A with ''Dynasty''{{'}}s author]], we know that the name "Assassin" was applied more broadly among the Chinese. It became an underground mantle by which newer generations of ''[[youxia\|xiake]]'' could repeatedly readopt even after a previous group of Assassins had been purged. The Chinese name for the Assassin, ''Cike'', predates the Hidden Ones' presence in China. To reconcile this with the mainstream canon, I surmise that the original ''Cike'' in the Warring States period would have been a different and indigenous group. At some point, the Hidden Ones arrived in China, and the ''Cike'' became subsumed into the Hidden Ones of China, and in the Chinese language, the names ''Cike'' and Assassin (i.e. the name from Persian) became identical. But being the frequent target of purges, in Li E's time, there was another lull in their presence in China. The Hidden Ones of the Great Desert were a ''separate'' group of Assassins who operated in China's periphery. By chance, Li E became one of them then later adopted the legacy of the earlier generations of Hidden Ones/Assassins in China as well under Pei Min's guidance. He founded the Hidden Ones of the Great Tang, another group of Chinese Assassins. Thus, with this complicated history, it can be suggested that the article on the Chinese Brotherhood is actually about the history of multiple different groups of Assassins in China across the ages.

	:Turning back now to the Egyptian Brotherhood and Persian Brotherhoods, one of the problems is first that both names are retrospective (i.e. ''The Essential Guide'' (1st ed.) used them to refer to Amunet and Darius' groups respectively). Another is that we have been inferring that we can extend their scope to cover Assassins in Egypt and Persia in later history. This practice of ours is technically speculative. We do not know for sure that [[Salah Bey]], though he was a Persian Assassin, was a member of a "Persian Brotherhood". Nor do we even know that [[Numa Al'Khamsin]] was a member of an "Egyptian Brotherhood"; we know he was an ''Egyptian Assassin'', but the name ''Egyptian Brotherhood'' hasn't been explicitly linked to him.		:Turning back now to the Egyptian Brotherhood and Persian Brotherhoods, one of the problems is first that both names are retrospective (i.e. ''The Essential Guide'' (1st ed.) used them to refer to Amunet and Darius' groups respectively). Another is that we have been inferring that we can extend their scope to cover Assassins in Egypt and Persia in later history. This practice of ours is technically speculative. We do not know for sure that [[Salah Bey]], though he was a Persian Assassin, was a member of a "Persian Brotherhood". Nor do we even know that [[Numa Al'Khamsin]] was a member of an "Egyptian Brotherhood"; we know he was an ''Egyptian Assassin'', but the name ''Egyptian Brotherhood'' hasn't been explicitly linked to him.

imported>The Wikia Editor at 00:56, 13 July 2024

2024-07-13T00:56:45Z

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	:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
	::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

			Hi everyone, apologies for chiming in so late. I generally agree with the consensus, although I lean a bit towards merging the Alamut Brotherhood into the Persian Brotherhood, but I understand that the overlap with the Levantine Brotherhood muddies the water quite a bit. It would be nice if a new guide gets released to clear things up, perhaps also establishing that the Assassins operating throughout [[Iraq]] were a separate brotherhood, albeit still subordinate to Alamut, similar to the Louisiana Rite. The fact that the Alamut Assassins considered Iltani to be one of their founders is a good indicator of how much overlap there was across the region between the bureaus. [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 02:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

2024-07-12T19:03:32Z

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	:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Francesco75: /* Merge */

2024-07-12T15:32:55Z

Merge

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	::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::I also agree with adding a "Other Persian Assassins" section. The consensus seems good to me, nothing more to say from my part.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		:::I also agree with adding a "Other Persian Assassins" section. The consensus seems good to me, nothing more to say from my part.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

			:We have a consensus for the Levantine and the Persian Brotherhood but I have a question about the Colonial, the Louisiana, the American and even the Canadian Assassins.
			:For me the Colonial Brotherhood need a proper page because the American Brotherhood could also revendicate a heritage from the Louisiana Brotherhood. As Louisiana became part of the US in 1803, all the acts they done could be written in the American Brotherhood page. Maybe we could mage a Colonial Brotherhood page with all the event between 1740s to 1804, keep the Louisiana Brotherhood page and the American Brotherhood page with the events post 1804 (Eseosa visit at the Homestead).

			:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

2024-07-12T13:42:00Z

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	==Merge==		==Merge==
	~~{{OpenTalk}}~~
	To my memory, I do not believe Ubisoft has said anything about this group's connections—if any—to other organizations. As I said in my edit summary, having 4 Assassin groups—the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Protectors of Persia, the Alamut Hidden Ones, and the Levantine Brotherhood—operate in the Middle East in such close geographical proximity to each other is an absolute mess. Sol said above that "we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region" (I freely admit that I am confused by the distinction between a guild and a branch). But I also am unsure if there is enough of us for the...authority(?) to move pages of groups that were once named in the apparently-unreliable ''Essential Guide'' 1st ed. if Ubisoft remains mum on this. Can we try to resolve this mess, and if so, how? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 19:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		To my memory, I do not believe Ubisoft has said anything about this group's connections—if any—to other organizations. As I said in my edit summary, having 4 Assassin groups—the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Protectors of Persia, the Alamut Hidden Ones, and the Levantine Brotherhood—operate in the Middle East in such close geographical proximity to each other is an absolute mess. Sol said above that "we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region" (I freely admit that I am confused by the distinction between a guild and a branch). But I also am unsure if there is enough of us for the...authority(?) to move pages of groups that were once named in the apparently-unreliable ''Essential Guide'' 1st ed. if Ubisoft remains mum on this. Can we try to resolve this mess, and if so, how? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 19:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
	:First, I am of the opinion that creating a separate article for "[[Hidden Ones of Alamut]]" was premature.		:First, I am of the opinion that creating a separate article for "[[Hidden Ones of Alamut]]" was premature.

imported>Cristophorus35: Reply sent

2024-06-22T23:56:44Z

Reply sent

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	For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::I also agree with adding a "Other Persian Assassins" section. The consensus seems good to me, nothing more to say from my part.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge */

2024-06-22T07:10:55Z

Merge

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	For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge */

2024-06-22T07:03:07Z

Merge

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	For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
			::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

2024-06-22T06:23:57Z

Merge

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	:::::I do also agree with Lacrosse's point regarding us not knowing enough about the relation between the Persian Brotherhood and the Alamut Brotherhood to treat them as distinct enough entities with their separate articles. I would personally have kept them as one article, as it makes a significant portion of the Persian Brotherhood article largely a repeat of information. But I may not feel as strongly about the matter as others maybe would to go to bat for their merger.		:::::I do also agree with Lacrosse's point regarding us not knowing enough about the relation between the Persian Brotherhood and the Alamut Brotherhood to treat them as distinct enough entities with their separate articles. I would personally have kept them as one article, as it makes a significant portion of the Persian Brotherhood article largely a repeat of information. But I may not feel as strongly about the matter as others maybe would to go to bat for their merger.
	:::::Sorry that my contribution is mainly an agreement with things that have previously been said. I think Sol's proposal is pretty much the approach the wiki should be taking. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)		:::::Sorry that my contribution is mainly an agreement with things that have previously been said. I think Sol's proposal is pretty much the approach the wiki should be taking. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
			Your thoughts on this helps a lot Sima Yi-sifu! So for everyone, what I gather is that this is the consensus:
			*Our articles on Assassin branches cover Assassin operational bases in the region throughout history broadly, much like country articles in Wikipedia. There are also separate articles on more specific units in those regions. Thus, "Hidden Ones of the Great Tang" is to the "Chinese Brotherhood" as the "Tang dynasty" is to "China". In some cases, with newer branches like the American Brotherhood, the two levels may be synonymous, as is the case with "United States of America".
			**Side-note: The West Indies Rite was destroyed by Edward Kenway and should be written as such in my opinion, but later operations within the region should still be mentioned. It is unclear to me if those operations necessarily reflect a re-establishment of the rite. There should thus be flexibility for particular cases.
			*"Alamut Hidden Ones" remains as a separate article. I believe that Darman was the only ''strong'' opposing opinion.
			*The Persian Brotherhood and the Levantine Brotherhood are to remain separate. Levantine Brotherhood does not cover Hassan-i Sabbah. Persian Brotherhood does not cover Masyaf. From Cris's comments, I am wondering if the Levantine Brotherhood covers Alamut during Altaïr's Mentorship?
			There is one more unsettled question you guys brought up: lists of members. I think with this new, clarified direction for these articles, we need to be more exact about listing members. Instead of dividing by period, we should divided by specific unit, such as the Hidden Ones of the Great Tang, and then we only list members who are verifiably part of that unit.

			For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /Merge/ Don't believe this was ever resolved

2024-06-16T03:00:18Z

Merge: Don't believe this was ever resolved

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	==Merge==		==Merge==
			{{OpenTalk}}
	To my memory, I do not believe Ubisoft has said anything about this group's connections—if any—to other organizations. As I said in my edit summary, having 4 Assassin groups—the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Protectors of Persia, the Alamut Hidden Ones, and the Levantine Brotherhood—operate in the Middle East in such close geographical proximity to each other is an absolute mess. Sol said above that "we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region" (I freely admit that I am confused by the distinction between a guild and a branch). But I also am unsure if there is enough of us for the...authority(?) to move pages of groups that were once named in the apparently-unreliable ''Essential Guide'' 1st ed. if Ubisoft remains mum on this. Can we try to resolve this mess, and if so, how? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 19:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		To my memory, I do not believe Ubisoft has said anything about this group's connections—if any—to other organizations. As I said in my edit summary, having 4 Assassin groups—the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Protectors of Persia, the Alamut Hidden Ones, and the Levantine Brotherhood—operate in the Middle East in such close geographical proximity to each other is an absolute mess. Sol said above that "we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region" (I freely admit that I am confused by the distinction between a guild and a branch). But I also am unsure if there is enough of us for the...authority(?) to move pages of groups that were once named in the apparently-unreliable ''Essential Guide'' 1st ed. if Ubisoft remains mum on this. Can we try to resolve this mess, and if so, how? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 19:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
	:First, I am of the opinion that creating a separate article for "[[Hidden Ones of Alamut]]" was premature.		:First, I am of the opinion that creating a separate article for "[[Hidden Ones of Alamut]]" was premature.

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	:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
	::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

			Hi everyone, apologies for chiming in so late. I generally agree with the consensus, although I lean a bit towards merging the Alamut Brotherhood into the Persian Brotherhood, but I understand that the overlap with the Levantine Brotherhood muddies the water quite a bit. It would be nice if a new guide gets released to clear things up, perhaps also establishing that the Assassins operating throughout [[Iraq]] were a separate brotherhood, albeit still subordinate to Alamut, similar to the Louisiana Rite. The fact that the Alamut Assassins considered Iltani to be one of their founders is a good indicator of how much overlap there was across the region between the bureaus. [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 02:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:56, 23 June 2024
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	For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::I also agree with adding a "Other Persian Assassins" section. The consensus seems good to me, nothing more to say from my part.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Persian Brotherhood of Assassins - Revision history

Soranin at 15:14, 17 June 2026

imported>The Wikia Editor at 00:56, 13 July 2024

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

imported>Francesco75: /* Merge */

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

imported>Cristophorus35: Reply sent

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge */

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge */

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

imported>Darman36: /*Merge*/ Don't believe this was ever resolved

imported>Darman36: /Merge/ Don't believe this was ever resolved