Talk:Persian Brotherhood of Assassins - Revision history

imported>The Wikia Editor at 00:56, 13 July 2024

2024-07-13T00:56:45Z

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	:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
	::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

			Hi everyone, apologies for chiming in so late. I generally agree with the consensus, although I lean a bit towards merging the Alamut Brotherhood into the Persian Brotherhood, but I understand that the overlap with the Levantine Brotherhood muddies the water quite a bit. It would be nice if a new guide gets released to clear things up, perhaps also establishing that the Assassins operating throughout [[Iraq]] were a separate brotherhood, albeit still subordinate to Alamut, similar to the Louisiana Rite. The fact that the Alamut Assassins considered Iltani to be one of their founders is a good indicator of how much overlap there was across the region between the bureaus. [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 02:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

2024-07-12T19:03:32Z

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	:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
			::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Francesco75: /* Merge */

2024-07-12T15:32:55Z

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	::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	:::I also agree with adding a "Other Persian Assassins" section. The consensus seems good to me, nothing more to say from my part.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		:::I also agree with adding a "Other Persian Assassins" section. The consensus seems good to me, nothing more to say from my part.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

			:We have a consensus for the Levantine and the Persian Brotherhood but I have a question about the Colonial, the Louisiana, the American and even the Canadian Assassins.
			:For me the Colonial Brotherhood need a proper page because the American Brotherhood could also revendicate a heritage from the Louisiana Brotherhood. As Louisiana became part of the US in 1803, all the acts they done could be written in the American Brotherhood page. Maybe we could mage a Colonial Brotherhood page with all the event between 1740s to 1804, keep the Louisiana Brotherhood page and the American Brotherhood page with the events post 1804 (Eseosa visit at the Homestead).

			:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

2024-07-12T13:42:00Z

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	==Merge==		==Merge==
	~~{{OpenTalk}}~~
	To my memory, I do not believe Ubisoft has said anything about this group's connections—if any—to other organizations. As I said in my edit summary, having 4 Assassin groups—the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Protectors of Persia, the Alamut Hidden Ones, and the Levantine Brotherhood—operate in the Middle East in such close geographical proximity to each other is an absolute mess. Sol said above that "we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region" (I freely admit that I am confused by the distinction between a guild and a branch). But I also am unsure if there is enough of us for the...authority(?) to move pages of groups that were once named in the apparently-unreliable ''Essential Guide'' 1st ed. if Ubisoft remains mum on this. Can we try to resolve this mess, and if so, how? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 19:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		To my memory, I do not believe Ubisoft has said anything about this group's connections—if any—to other organizations. As I said in my edit summary, having 4 Assassin groups—the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Protectors of Persia, the Alamut Hidden Ones, and the Levantine Brotherhood—operate in the Middle East in such close geographical proximity to each other is an absolute mess. Sol said above that "we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region" (I freely admit that I am confused by the distinction between a guild and a branch). But I also am unsure if there is enough of us for the...authority(?) to move pages of groups that were once named in the apparently-unreliable ''Essential Guide'' 1st ed. if Ubisoft remains mum on this. Can we try to resolve this mess, and if so, how? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 19:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
	:First, I am of the opinion that creating a separate article for "[[Hidden Ones of Alamut]]" was premature.		:First, I am of the opinion that creating a separate article for "[[Hidden Ones of Alamut]]" was premature.

imported>Cristophorus35: Reply sent

2024-06-22T23:56:44Z

Reply sent

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	For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::I also agree with adding a "Other Persian Assassins" section. The consensus seems good to me, nothing more to say from my part.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge */

2024-06-22T07:10:55Z

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	For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge */

2024-06-22T07:03:07Z

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	For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
			::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

2024-06-22T06:23:57Z

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	:::::I do also agree with Lacrosse's point regarding us not knowing enough about the relation between the Persian Brotherhood and the Alamut Brotherhood to treat them as distinct enough entities with their separate articles. I would personally have kept them as one article, as it makes a significant portion of the Persian Brotherhood article largely a repeat of information. But I may not feel as strongly about the matter as others maybe would to go to bat for their merger.		:::::I do also agree with Lacrosse's point regarding us not knowing enough about the relation between the Persian Brotherhood and the Alamut Brotherhood to treat them as distinct enough entities with their separate articles. I would personally have kept them as one article, as it makes a significant portion of the Persian Brotherhood article largely a repeat of information. But I may not feel as strongly about the matter as others maybe would to go to bat for their merger.
	:::::Sorry that my contribution is mainly an agreement with things that have previously been said. I think Sol's proposal is pretty much the approach the wiki should be taking. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)		:::::Sorry that my contribution is mainly an agreement with things that have previously been said. I think Sol's proposal is pretty much the approach the wiki should be taking. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
			Your thoughts on this helps a lot Sima Yi-sifu! So for everyone, what I gather is that this is the consensus:
			*Our articles on Assassin branches cover Assassin operational bases in the region throughout history broadly, much like country articles in Wikipedia. There are also separate articles on more specific units in those regions. Thus, "Hidden Ones of the Great Tang" is to the "Chinese Brotherhood" as the "Tang dynasty" is to "China". In some cases, with newer branches like the American Brotherhood, the two levels may be synonymous, as is the case with "United States of America".
			**Side-note: The West Indies Rite was destroyed by Edward Kenway and should be written as such in my opinion, but later operations within the region should still be mentioned. It is unclear to me if those operations necessarily reflect a re-establishment of the rite. There should thus be flexibility for particular cases.
			*"Alamut Hidden Ones" remains as a separate article. I believe that Darman was the only ''strong'' opposing opinion.
			*The Persian Brotherhood and the Levantine Brotherhood are to remain separate. Levantine Brotherhood does not cover Hassan-i Sabbah. Persian Brotherhood does not cover Masyaf. From Cris's comments, I am wondering if the Levantine Brotherhood covers Alamut during Altaïr's Mentorship?
			There is one more unsettled question you guys brought up: lists of members. I think with this new, clarified direction for these articles, we need to be more exact about listing members. Instead of dividing by period, we should divided by specific unit, such as the Hidden Ones of the Great Tang, and then we only list members who are verifiably part of that unit.

			For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /Merge/ Don't believe this was ever resolved

2024-06-16T03:00:18Z

Merge: Don't believe this was ever resolved

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	==Merge==		==Merge==
			{{OpenTalk}}
	To my memory, I do not believe Ubisoft has said anything about this group's connections—if any—to other organizations. As I said in my edit summary, having 4 Assassin groups—the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Protectors of Persia, the Alamut Hidden Ones, and the Levantine Brotherhood—operate in the Middle East in such close geographical proximity to each other is an absolute mess. Sol said above that "we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region" (I freely admit that I am confused by the distinction between a guild and a branch). But I also am unsure if there is enough of us for the...authority(?) to move pages of groups that were once named in the apparently-unreliable ''Essential Guide'' 1st ed. if Ubisoft remains mum on this. Can we try to resolve this mess, and if so, how? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 19:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)		To my memory, I do not believe Ubisoft has said anything about this group's connections—if any—to other organizations. As I said in my edit summary, having 4 Assassin groups—the Babylonian Brotherhood, the Protectors of Persia, the Alamut Hidden Ones, and the Levantine Brotherhood—operate in the Middle East in such close geographical proximity to each other is an absolute mess. Sol said above that "we still haven't finished figuring out whether these articles on Assassin sub-"brotherhoods" should be about the guilds or any branch of the Assassins that operated in the region" (I freely admit that I am confused by the distinction between a guild and a branch). But I also am unsure if there is enough of us for the...authority(?) to move pages of groups that were once named in the apparently-unreliable ''Essential Guide'' 1st ed. if Ubisoft remains mum on this. Can we try to resolve this mess, and if so, how? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 19:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
	:First, I am of the opinion that creating a separate article for "[[Hidden Ones of Alamut]]" was premature.		:First, I am of the opinion that creating a separate article for "[[Hidden Ones of Alamut]]" was premature.

imported>Master Sima Yi: /* Merge */

2024-05-17T16:02:51Z

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	::::''The Essential Guide'' explicitly refers to Robert de Sablé as belonging to the Levantine Rite. It also appears to use the name synonymously with Knights Templar. By that virtue, it would probably be safer to infer that Bernard de Clairvaux and Hugues de Payens also belonged to the Levantine Rite. It is dubious if we could say that Jacques de Molay belonged to the Levantine Rite when he was based entirely in France, and we run into the same issue as that of the Levantine Brotherhood where the name Levantine Rite appears to be retrospective. I look with concern at speculatively placing characters as members of rites without the backing of sources, but to sideline this problem, we can just move Levantine Rite to "Knights Templar" and write about it as encompassing the period of the Order from Bernaud de Clairvaux to Jacques de Molay, with "Levantine Rite" as an alternative name. That way, we're not expressly making a claim about whether or not Bernard, Hugues, and Jacques were members of the Levantine Rite or the French Rite or if such a division existed in their time, only that they were Knights Templar. Ethnic or national origin is definitely not a basis for assuming membership in a particular branch by the way. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)		::::''The Essential Guide'' explicitly refers to Robert de Sablé as belonging to the Levantine Rite. It also appears to use the name synonymously with Knights Templar. By that virtue, it would probably be safer to infer that Bernard de Clairvaux and Hugues de Payens also belonged to the Levantine Rite. It is dubious if we could say that Jacques de Molay belonged to the Levantine Rite when he was based entirely in France, and we run into the same issue as that of the Levantine Brotherhood where the name Levantine Rite appears to be retrospective. I look with concern at speculatively placing characters as members of rites without the backing of sources, but to sideline this problem, we can just move Levantine Rite to "Knights Templar" and write about it as encompassing the period of the Order from Bernaud de Clairvaux to Jacques de Molay, with "Levantine Rite" as an alternative name. That way, we're not expressly making a claim about whether or not Bernard, Hugues, and Jacques were members of the Levantine Rite or the French Rite or if such a division existed in their time, only that they were Knights Templar. Ethnic or national origin is definitely not a basis for assuming membership in a particular branch by the way. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

			:::::Better late than never, but I promised I would give my two cents on the matter. However, I don't think there is much more I can add that hasn't already been said. I am in agreement with Sol's proposal. Much as ''The Essential Guide'' claims the Levantine Brotherhood to encompass Alamut, this doesn't make any practical sense in-universe. To summarise:

			::::::*The Alamut Hidden Ones' reach did not properly extend into the area of the later Levantine Assassins. Rayhan writes to a fellow Assassin of the rumour of a great artifact – the Apple – hidden in Jerusalem. He describes how the Brotherhood lacks a firm foothold in the area, and suggests the idea of establishing a fortress to the north – Masyaf.
			::::::*By 877, even the Hidden Ones we know were active in parts of the Abbasid Caliphate may not have fallen completely under the jurisdiction of a single Mentor. By that time, Fuladh has been promoted to Mentor of the Hidden Ones in the Justanid region, which. Rayhan is also still a Mentor, and while he may have operated in an area outside of Persia by this time, the specificity of Fuladh being the Mentor of only the Justanid region implies to me that there are other Mentors operating in different areas of the Caliphate. While this doesn't directly relate to the Levantine Assassins or their activities hundreds of years later, it does make it more plausible to me that there also wouldn't be a single Mentor ruling over such a significantly large area of the Abbasid Caliphate by Al Mualim's time.
			::::::*As others have mentioned, the AC1 game guide confirms Hassan the Younger sent Al Mualim away from Alamut to establish a new fortress in Masyaf. Something that as of Mirage, the Hidden Ones had been contemplating for a while. Al Mualim would then gain his own autonomy there, clearly defining the two branches as separate from each other. It's unlikely the devs consider the AC1 game guide, which clearly borrows a lot from Rashid ad-Din Sinan's real life history that Ubisoft is shying away from, to still be canon. But without anything else to contradict or override it just yet, we'll still have to treat it as such by default.
			::::::*Altaïr fleeing to Alamut to escape from Abbas and being able to safely live there in exile for two decades implies to me that Alamut is not under the same jurisdiction as the Assassins in Masyaf even by 1228. Though it is of course possible that the Assassins there simply pledged loyalty to Altaïr rather than Abbas.
			::::::*While the original source is likely gone, Access the Animus posted the character bios for the ''Brotherhood of Venice'' characters when they were first released. This confirmed Dariâ as a Persian Assassin, and confirms the existence of a distinct Persian Brotherhood by at least the 16th century. "She wears a prominent diadem showing the symbol of the Persian Brotherhood, a gift from her mentor before she left Shiraz." Even if the Levantine and Persian Brotherhoods were one and the same at Hassan-i Sabbah's time, there was at least a Persian Brotherhood at a later (and in this case perhaps also earlier) point in time, which in my opinion would warrant a separate article anyway.
			:::::I do also agree with Lacrosse's point regarding us not knowing enough about the relation between the Persian Brotherhood and the Alamut Brotherhood to treat them as distinct enough entities with their separate articles. I would personally have kept them as one article, as it makes a significant portion of the Persian Brotherhood article largely a repeat of information. But I may not feel as strongly about the matter as others maybe would to go to bat for their merger.
			:::::Sorry that my contribution is mainly an agreement with things that have previously been said. I think Sol's proposal is pretty much the approach the wiki should be taking. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

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	:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		:Then for the Canadian Brotherhood, do we write the actions done by the Colonial Brotherhood in Rogue and in the Contracts of AC3 ?[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 15:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
	::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		::Oh right, you opened this topic in the talk page for "[[Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins\|American Brotherhood of Assassins]]". Let's keep that discussion on that page. Sorry for forgetting to respond to that. I'll get to it later today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

			Hi everyone, apologies for chiming in so late. I generally agree with the consensus, although I lean a bit towards merging the Alamut Brotherhood into the Persian Brotherhood, but I understand that the overlap with the Levantine Brotherhood muddies the water quite a bit. It would be nice if a new guide gets released to clear things up, perhaps also establishing that the Assassins operating throughout [[Iraq]] were a separate brotherhood, albeit still subordinate to Alamut, similar to the Louisiana Rite. The fact that the Alamut Assassins considered Iltani to be one of their founders is a good indicator of how much overlap there was across the region between the bureaus. [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 02:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:56, 23 June 2024
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	For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		For example, "Salah Bey" isn't confirmed as a member of the Persian Brotherhood; that is just our inference. We should of course discuss his activity in this page, but should he be listed as a member? My logic is that his exclusion isn't a statement that he wasn't a member of the Persian Brotherhood, just that only those whose membership can be sourced should be in the list. Alternatively, we can list him under a heading titled "Other Persian Assassins". ("Persian Assassin" being a weaker claim than a member of the Persian Brotherhood). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
	::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)		::I like the "Other Persian Assassins" section for the misc Assassins operating in the area. Also regarding Altair and Alamut given that he was able to take refuge their after Abbas's coup it seems separate by that point but given that Altair is framed as just leading from Alamut once there it also seems separate even during Altair first mentorship. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
			:::I also agree with adding a "Other Persian Assassins" section. The consensus seems good to me, nothing more to say from my part.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Persian Brotherhood of Assassins - Revision history

imported>The Wikia Editor at 00:56, 13 July 2024

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

imported>Francesco75: /* Merge */

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

imported>Cristophorus35: Reply sent

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge */

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge */

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge */

imported>Darman36: /*Merge*/ Don't believe this was ever resolved

imported>Master Sima Yi: /* Merge */

imported>Darman36: /Merge/ Don't believe this was ever resolved