Talk:Pactyas - Revision history

Soranin: /* Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients */

2026-05-14T00:04:10Z

Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:04, 14 May 2026
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	{{Talkheader}}		{{Talkheader}}
	==Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients==		==Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients==
	While looking at the pages in the [[:Category:Order of the Ancients members]], I noticed that we had two ways of doing so: (Ancient) like in [Cyrus (Ancient)] and (Ancients) like in the page this is a talk for. At this point, I don't want to get into whether these pages should be the principal page for their names, that's another discussion, but we should decide on a uniform way of disambiguating for the order. Thoughts? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 11:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		While looking at the pages in the [:Category:Order of the Ancients members]], I noticed that we had two ways of doing so: (Ancient) like in [Cyrus (Ancient)] and (Ancients) like in the page this is a talk for. At this point, I don't want to get into whether these pages should be the principal page for their names, that's another discussion, but we should decide on a uniform way of disambiguating for the order. Thoughts? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 11:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
	:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
	::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

imported>Soranin: /* Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients */

2023-09-12T15:31:56Z

Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:31, 12 September 2023
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	{{Talkheader}}		{{Talkheader}}
	==Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients==		==Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients==
	While looking at the pages in the [[:Category:Order of the Ancients members]], I noticed that we had two ways of doing so: (Ancient) like in [[Cyrus (Ancient)]] and (Ancients) like in the page this is a talk for. At this point, I don't want to get into whether these pages should be the principal page for their names, that's another discussion, but we should decide on a uniform way of disambiguating for the order. Thoughts? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 11:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		While looking at the pages in the [[:Category:Order of the Ancients members]], I noticed that we had two ways of doing so: (Ancient) like in [Cyrus (Ancient)] and (Ancients) like in the page this is a talk for. At this point, I don't want to get into whether these pages should be the principal page for their names, that's another discussion, but we should decide on a uniform way of disambiguating for the order. Thoughts? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 11:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
	:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
	::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: Sol Pacificus moved page Talk:Pactyas (Ancients) to Talk:Pactyas without leaving a redirect: The primary topic for this name.

2023-01-29T02:14:20Z

Sol Pacificus moved page Talk:Pactyas (Ancients) to Talk:Pactyas without leaving a redirect: The primary topic for this name.

← Older revision	Revision as of 04:14, 29 January 2023
(No difference)

imported>Sol Pacificus at 23:24, 28 January 2023

2023-01-28T23:24:23Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:24, 29 January 2023
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	:::::: Does this help any? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 01:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)		:::::: Does this help any? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 01:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
	I have some updates. I've discovered that "Ancient" is actually used regularly as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients in ''The Legacy of the First Blade'', especially in the clues for each member. This definitively settles the question. I'm surprised this had slipped by all of us before. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 07:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)		I have some updates. I've discovered that "Ancient" is actually used regularly as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients in ''The Legacy of the First Blade'', especially in the clues for each member. This definitively settles the question. I'm surprised this had slipped by all of us before. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 07:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

			More updates. I just realized that Pactyas is the Huntsman. Silly me, I had totally forgotten and then didn't check back the article because I am behind on the games, so I was afraid there'd be spoilers in the article. This renders this entire debate boot (except for the question of how we refer to members of the Order concisely in prose...) because:
			#He is the primary topic for the name Pactyas, not a Lydian general mentioned like a footnote in the series.
			#I have been meaning to argue that our naming policy should include epithets for non-royals at least, especially in the case of mercenaries and members of the Order of the Ancients. I think we've been inconsistent about this, but when two individuals share the same name, it is silly not to use their natural disambiguation—their epithet.

			The article Pactyas should be either at
			#"Pactyas the Huntsman"—in which case all articles for members of the Order of the Ancients need to be changed accordingly for consistency.
			#"Pactyas"—because he is the primary topic for the name.

			Furthermore, if we did have to use a parenthetical term, "the Huntsman" takes precedence before any demonym for the Order of the Ancients due to being a clearer identifier. And because (a) is an option, something like "Pactyas (the Huntsman)" would be pretty silly. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:24, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients */

2023-01-24T07:04:59Z

Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:04, 24 January 2023
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	::''The woman you’re looking for is named Niamh. She wears a cloak with ravens embroidered on the shoulders, and carries the sword known as Excalibur from the northlands of Caledonia. Whatever you must do to take the sword within your power. She may still be working with the Hidden Ones, so I directed an attack on their little bureau in Lunden at the same time. – The Adder's Son, serving the Ancients.''		::''The woman you’re looking for is named Niamh. She wears a cloak with ravens embroidered on the shoulders, and carries the sword known as Excalibur from the northlands of Caledonia. Whatever you must do to take the sword within your power. She may still be working with the Hidden Ones, so I directed an attack on their little bureau in Lunden at the same time. – The Adder's Son, serving the Ancients.''
	:::::: Does this help any? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 01:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)		:::::: Does this help any? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 01:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
			I have some updates. I've discovered that "Ancient" is actually used regularly as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients in ''The Legacy of the First Blade'', especially in the clues for each member. This definitively settles the question. I'm surprised this had slipped by all of us before. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 07:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

imported>Soranin: /* Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients */

2023-01-11T01:20:07Z

Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:20, 11 January 2023
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	::::That seems like enough reason for use to use either formation to me. Let's see if Cyf agrees. I still vote "Ancients" for the final even though we use the singular for Assassin and Templar disambig (I'd also vote for Instruments in the plural if it ever came up). [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)		::::That seems like enough reason for use to use either formation to me. Let's see if Cyf agrees. I still vote "Ancients" for the final even though we use the singular for Assassin and Templar disambig (I'd also vote for Instruments in the plural if it ever came up). [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
	:::::Sora, can you quote more of the examples fully? I think "Ancient(s)" might still not be ideal if it also refers to Isu because then it might not be much of a disambiguating term then. In my mind, we still have to weigh the sources. Also, the ideal disambiguating term refers directly to the individual, like if you had to disambiguate an individual who is a doctor, firefighter, or mailman, you would use the singular (doctor), (firefighter), or (mailman) not the plural (doctors), (firefighters), or (mailmen). The plural doesn't normally make sense even though in this case "Ancients" would sound better (if only because ''ancient'' is normally an adjective). The only case being made for using the plural would be if the disambiguating term is being used to refer to the organization, and there's no other way to do so but to pluralize the demonym. In any case, we would need more than my input and your two votes to comfortably reach a consensus. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)		:::::Sora, can you quote more of the examples fully? I think "Ancient(s)" might still not be ideal if it also refers to Isu because then it might not be much of a disambiguating term then. In my mind, we still have to weigh the sources. Also, the ideal disambiguating term refers directly to the individual, like if you had to disambiguate an individual who is a doctor, firefighter, or mailman, you would use the singular (doctor), (firefighter), or (mailman) not the plural (doctors), (firefighters), or (mailmen). The plural doesn't normally make sense even though in this case "Ancients" would sound better (if only because ''ancient'' is normally an adjective). The only case being made for using the plural would be if the disambiguating term is being used to refer to the organization, and there's no other way to do so but to pluralize the demonym. In any case, we would need more than my input and your two votes to comfortably reach a consensus. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
			::::::Okay, here is the full paragraph of the use of "Ancient" (Chapter 18):
			::''“Tell your masters that no matter who I work for, I work against them. Tell them they have made an enemy, and that I will fight to keep their power weak. Tell them, most of all, that the sword is not theirs. Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs."'' (Descendant here referring to the [[Descendants of the Round Table]])
			:::::: Here's an example of using "Ancient Ones" (Chapter 12):
			::''"Lady, what does it mean if Mordred's people, or the Ancient Ones, or even the Hidden Ones, were to keep Excalibur out of our hands? Isn't it just a piece of the Sacred Table? Couldn't we simply forge another?"''
			:::::: And here's using just "Ancients" (Chapter 18):
			::''The woman you’re looking for is named Niamh. She wears a cloak with ravens embroidered on the shoulders, and carries the sword known as Excalibur from the northlands of Caledonia. Whatever you must do to take the sword within your power. She may still be working with the Hidden Ones, so I directed an attack on their little bureau in Lunden at the same time. – The Adder's Son, serving the Ancients.''
			:::::: Does this help any? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 01:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients */

2023-01-08T20:10:29Z

Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:10, 8 January 2023
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	:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
	::::That seems like enough reason for use to use either formation to me. Let's see if Cyf agrees. I still vote "Ancients" for the final even though we use the singular for Assassin and Templar disambig (I'd also vote for Instruments in the plural if it ever came up). [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)		::::That seems like enough reason for use to use either formation to me. Let's see if Cyf agrees. I still vote "Ancients" for the final even though we use the singular for Assassin and Templar disambig (I'd also vote for Instruments in the plural if it ever came up). [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Sora, can you quote more of the examples fully? I think "Ancient(s)" might still not be ideal if it also refers to Isu because then it might not be much of a disambiguating term then. In my mind, we still have to weigh the sources. Also, the ideal disambiguating term refers directly to the individual, like if you had to disambiguate an individual who is a doctor, firefighter, or mailman, you would use the singular (doctor), (firefighter), or (mailman) not the plural (doctors), (firefighters), or (mailmen). The plural doesn't normally make sense even though in this case "Ancients" would sound better (if only because ''ancient'' is normally an adjective). The only case being made for using the plural would be if the disambiguating term is being used to refer to the organization, and there's no other way to do so but to pluralize the demonym. In any case, we would need more than my input and your two votes to comfortably reach a consensus. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients */

2023-01-08T04:44:58Z

Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:44, 8 January 2023
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	::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
	:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
			::::That seems like enough reason for use to use either formation to me. Let's see if Cyf agrees. I still vote "Ancients" for the final even though we use the singular for Assassin and Templar disambig (I'd also vote for Instruments in the plural if it ever came up). [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

imported>Soranin: /* Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients */

2023-01-06T14:54:13Z

Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:54, 6 January 2023
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	:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
	::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
			:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients */

2023-01-06T11:22:48Z

Disambiguating for the Order of the Ancients

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:22, 6 January 2023
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	While looking at the pages in the [[:Category:Order of the Ancients members]], I noticed that we had two ways of doing so: (Ancient) like in [[Cyrus (Ancient)]] and (Ancients) like in the page this is a talk for. At this point, I don't want to get into whether these pages should be the principal page for their names, that's another discussion, but we should decide on a uniform way of disambiguating for the order. Thoughts? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 11:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		While looking at the pages in the [[:Category:Order of the Ancients members]], I noticed that we had two ways of doing so: (Ancient) like in [[Cyrus (Ancient)]] and (Ancients) like in the page this is a talk for. At this point, I don't want to get into whether these pages should be the principal page for their names, that's another discussion, but we should decide on a uniform way of disambiguating for the order. Thoughts? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 11:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
	:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
			::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:10, 8 January 2023
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	:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
	::::That seems like enough reason for use to use either formation to me. Let's see if Cyf agrees. I still vote "Ancients" for the final even though we use the singular for Assassin and Templar disambig (I'd also vote for Instruments in the plural if it ever came up). [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)		::::That seems like enough reason for use to use either formation to me. Let's see if Cyf agrees. I still vote "Ancients" for the final even though we use the singular for Assassin and Templar disambig (I'd also vote for Instruments in the plural if it ever came up). [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Sora, can you quote more of the examples fully? I think "Ancient(s)" might still not be ideal if it also refers to Isu because then it might not be much of a disambiguating term then. In my mind, we still have to weigh the sources. Also, the ideal disambiguating term refers directly to the individual, like if you had to disambiguate an individual who is a doctor, firefighter, or mailman, you would use the singular (doctor), (firefighter), or (mailman) not the plural (doctors), (firefighters), or (mailmen). The plural doesn't normally make sense even though in this case "Ancients" would sound better (if only because ''ancient'' is normally an adjective). The only case being made for using the plural would be if the disambiguating term is being used to refer to the organization, and there's no other way to do so but to pluralize the demonym. In any case, we would need more than my input and your two votes to comfortably reach a consensus. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:44, 8 January 2023
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	::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
	:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
			::::That seems like enough reason for use to use either formation to me. Let's see if Cyf agrees. I still vote "Ancients" for the final even though we use the singular for Assassin and Templar disambig (I'd also vote for Instruments in the plural if it ever came up). [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 04:44, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:54, 6 January 2023
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	:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
	::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)		::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
			:::In SotWh chapter 18, the protag says "Descendant or Ancient, the sword is not theirs." if that helps any and some characters refer to the order as the "Ancient Ones" and simply as "Ancients". - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 14:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:22, 6 January 2023
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	While looking at the pages in the [[:Category:Order of the Ancients members]], I noticed that we had two ways of doing so: (Ancient) like in [[Cyrus (Ancient)]] and (Ancients) like in the page this is a talk for. At this point, I don't want to get into whether these pages should be the principal page for their names, that's another discussion, but we should decide on a uniform way of disambiguating for the order. Thoughts? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 11:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		While looking at the pages in the [[:Category:Order of the Ancients members]], I noticed that we had two ways of doing so: (Ancient) like in [[Cyrus (Ancient)]] and (Ancients) like in the page this is a talk for. At this point, I don't want to get into whether these pages should be the principal page for their names, that's another discussion, but we should decide on a uniform way of disambiguating for the order. Thoughts? - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 11:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
	:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)		:The problem is that, as far as I know, there isn't a clear demonym used for the Order of the Ancients canonically. "Ancient(s)" sounds fine to me except that other users have mentioned on Discord that it has canonically been used for Isu. If "Ancient(s)" has never been canonically used as a demonym for a member of the Order of the Ancients, then it cannot stand as the disambiguating term because it actually denotes an Isu. The suggestion "OoA" or "OotA" came up, but I think using informal acronyms and abbreviations does not fit the formal encyclopedia style and looks sloppy. This is as opposed to something like (FBI) which is an instantly recognizable and official acronym. At this point, my only suggestions can be either to use the full "(Order of the Ancients)", as lengthy as it may be, or to use "the Order", which is what is used in ''Dynasty''. Concerns have been expressed that "the Order" can refer to both the Order of the Ancients and the Templar Order, but they are synonymous enough that for the purposes of a disambiguating term, I don't think it matters. At the very least, there's canonical precedence for using just "the Order". [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
			::If the choices are between (Ancient) or (Ancients) I say we use the latter and don't see much issue with that but do agree that the eponymous Ancients in the Order of the Ancients is a reference to the Isu (whose name OOU was derived from the Egyptian word for "ancient"). I did look through Origins: Desert Oath to see how it was used but oddly enough the term "ancient" was mostly used by members of the Order to refer to the Medjay leading me to think the Bowden wasn't told this iteration was called Order of the Ancients at all. I don't know if SotWH, Golden City, or Hytham's Journal might help us with this issue or if any other transmedia or reference work could be of use in this regard. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 11:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)