Talk:Hidden Ones - Revision history

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge into "Assassins" */

2023-11-29T04:23:29Z

Merge into "Assassins"

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:23, 29 November 2023
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	:::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		:::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
	::::OK. Then we type <nowiki>[[Assassins]]</nowiki> for the group from here on out instead of <nowiki>[[Assassins\|Hidden Ones]]</nowiki>? Just want to try and be clear since, as you said above, there's no official date for when the name changed. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		::::OK. Then we type <nowiki>[[Assassins]]</nowiki> for the group from here on out instead of <nowiki>[[Assassins\|Hidden Ones]]</nowiki>? Just want to try and be clear since, as you said above, there's no official date for when the name changed. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Hidden Ones is still a valid name. For the most part, use the name that is contemporaneous to the characters. For example, the organization as it was known during Basim's time was called the Hidden Ones. If you were writing from a broader view of history, on the other hand, it is okay to use "Assassins" generally. The name "Assassins" is applied retrospectively by modern Assassins for even periods predating whenever it started to be used. (Kind of like how we use the names Vietnam or Korea when talking about these countries' entire histories even though both names were not invented until a later time). For example, "Bayek and Amunet were founders of the Assassins" is correct although "Bayek and Amunet were founders of the Hidden Ones" is more precise. "Bayek, Amunet, and Numa Al'Khamsin were all Egyptian Assassins" is also okay. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 04:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /* Merge into "Assassins" */

2023-11-29T04:10:35Z

Merge into "Assassins"

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:10, 29 November 2023
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	::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say on Hassan's page that he captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)		I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
	::::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		:::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::OK. Then we type <nowiki>[[Assassins]]</nowiki> for the group from here on out instead of <nowiki>[[Assassins\|Hidden Ones]]</nowiki>? Just want to try and be clear since, as you said above, there's no official date for when the name changed. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge into "Assassins" */

2023-11-29T03:49:20Z

Merge into "Assassins"

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:49, 29 November 2023
Line 20:		Line 20:
	I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)		I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		:::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Darman36 at 03:00, 29 November 2023

2023-11-29T03:00:31Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:00, 29 November 2023
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	::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)		I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus at 18:07, 28 November 2023

2023-11-28T18:07:43Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:07, 28 November 2023
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	{{~~Talkheader~~}}		{{ArchivedTalk}}

	==Idea for Infobox==		==Idea for Infobox==
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	:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
			I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge into "Assassins" */

2023-11-20T23:33:49Z

Merge into "Assassins"

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:33, 21 November 2023
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	I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
			::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Merge into "Assassins" */

2023-11-20T08:49:30Z

Merge into "Assassins"

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:49, 20 November 2023
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	:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
			:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /* Merge into "Assassins" */

2023-11-20T04:15:20Z

Merge into "Assassins"

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	::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
			I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon at 03:48, 20 November 2023

2023-11-20T03:48:08Z

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	::::In addition, "Assassins" currently expounds upon philosophy, ideology, goals, and methods, which are more or less identical with the Hidden Ones. So information between the two pages on these topics are the same. The Hidden Ones article would just be folded into "Assassins" and cut down to keep the page concise.		::::In addition, "Assassins" currently expounds upon philosophy, ideology, goals, and methods, which are more or less identical with the Hidden Ones. So information between the two pages on these topics are the same. The Hidden Ones article would just be folded into "Assassins" and cut down to keep the page concise.
	::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Merge into "Assassins" */

2023-11-20T03:38:53Z

Merge into "Assassins"

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	:::I am leery of doing this before we have more definite lore surrounding Hassan-i Sabah. Per official canon he captured Alamut from someone. As far as we know Alamut never left Hidden One control. So regardless of what Ubisoft has said this implies some schism of some sort. I mean until its in actual canon anything Ubisoft says about future lore is just as speculative as anything we say. I'm not against the merge per se and its seemingly not as big a break as between the Ancients and the Templars but it's still something to think about. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:37, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:::I am leery of doing this before we have more definite lore surrounding Hassan-i Sabah. Per official canon he captured Alamut from someone. As far as we know Alamut never left Hidden One control. So regardless of what Ubisoft has said this implies some schism of some sort. I mean until its in actual canon anything Ubisoft says about future lore is just as speculative as anything we say. I'm not against the merge per se and its seemingly not as big a break as between the Ancients and the Templars but it's still something to think about. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:37, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	::::Vetinari, the history section of the Assassins article has already been moved to its own page, "[[History of the Assassins]]", due to its length (even though I would argue a brief 1–3 paragraph summary of it should still be present in the Assassins article. In addition, the scope of Assassin history spans as far back as Adam and Eve, as antecedents of the Hidden Ones are regarded by modern Assassins as part of their historical tradition. The idea of "Hidden Ones" discussing 1 millennium of the Assassin history and "Assassins" discussing the next millennium is premised on the misconception that there is a clear delineation between the two in canon and within in-universe historiography. This is not the case as it has not been confirmed—as has been fans' assumption since ''Origins''—that in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe the name "Assassins" originated with Hassan-i Sabbah.		::::Vetinari, the history section of the Assassins article has already been moved to its own page, "[[History of the Assassins]]", due to its length (even though I would argue a brief 1–3 paragraph summary of it should still be present in the Assassins article. In addition, the scope of Assassin history spans as far back as Adam and Eve, as antecedents of the Hidden Ones are regarded by modern Assassins as part of their historical tradition. The idea of "Hidden Ones" discussing 1 millennium of the Assassin history and "Assassins" discussing the next millennium is premised on the misconception that there is a clear delineation between the two in canon and within in-universe historiography. This is not the case as it has not been confirmed—as has been fans' assumption since ''Origins''—that in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe the name "Assassins" originated with Hassan-i Sabbah.
	::::To repeat what I said in the community discussion, Ubisoft had advertised ''Origins'' to be about the origins of the ~~Assassins~~. ''Origins'' made a retcon that shifted the beginning of the Assassins from Adam and Eve to the 1st century BCE. In reaction, fans then conceptually shifted the beginning of the Assassins to the ''11th century'' just based on assumptions about when the name Assassins must have arisen and that that name's invention must entail when the modern Assassins were actually born. This is not what was said in the lore. In this way, fans' misconception threatened to make a more extreme retcon on top of a retcon, and it is vital that we rectify this. Ubisoft's retcon is that the Assassins, by the name Hidden Ones, were founded in the 1st century BCE in Egypt. There is no delimitation about when or how Hidden Ones transitioned into using the name Assassins at this time, making any arbitrary delimitation with articles improper. It is clear, however, that it is the same organization.		::::To repeat what I said in the community discussion, Ubisoft had advertised ''Origins'' to be about the origins of the Assassins—it just turned out they used the name Hidden Ones at first. ''Origins'' made a retcon that shifted the beginning of the Assassins from Adam and Eve to the 1st century BCE. In reaction, fans then conceptually shifted the beginning of the Assassins to the ''11th century'' just based on assumptions about when the name Assassins must have arisen and that that name's invention must entail when the modern Assassins were actually born. This is not what was said in the lore. In this way, fans' misconception threatened to make a more extreme retcon on top of a retcon, and it is vital that we rectify this. Ubisoft's retcon is that the Assassins, by the name Hidden Ones, were founded in the 1st century BCE in Egypt. There is no delimitation about when or how Hidden Ones transitioned into using the name Assassins at this time, making any arbitrary delimitation with articles improper. It is clear, however, that it is the same organization.
	::::In addition, "Assassins" currently expounds upon philosophy, ideology, goals, and methods, which are more or less identical with the Hidden Ones. So information between the two pages on these topics are the same. The Hidden Ones article would just be folded into "Assassins" and cut down to keep the page concise.		::::In addition, "Assassins" currently expounds upon philosophy, ideology, goals, and methods, which are more or less identical with the Hidden Ones. So information between the two pages on these topics are the same. The Hidden Ones article would just be folded into "Assassins" and cut down to keep the page concise.
	::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

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	:::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		:::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
	::::OK. Then we type <nowiki>[[Assassins]]</nowiki> for the group from here on out instead of <nowiki>[[Assassins\|Hidden Ones]]</nowiki>? Just want to try and be clear since, as you said above, there's no official date for when the name changed. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		::::OK. Then we type <nowiki>[[Assassins]]</nowiki> for the group from here on out instead of <nowiki>[[Assassins\|Hidden Ones]]</nowiki>? Just want to try and be clear since, as you said above, there's no official date for when the name changed. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Hidden Ones is still a valid name. For the most part, use the name that is contemporaneous to the characters. For example, the organization as it was known during Basim's time was called the Hidden Ones. If you were writing from a broader view of history, on the other hand, it is okay to use "Assassins" generally. The name "Assassins" is applied retrospectively by modern Assassins for even periods predating whenever it started to be used. (Kind of like how we use the names Vietnam or Korea when talking about these countries' entire histories even though both names were not invented until a later time). For example, "Bayek and Amunet were founders of the Assassins" is correct although "Bayek and Amunet were founders of the Hidden Ones" is more precise. "Bayek, Amunet, and Numa Al'Khamsin were all Egyptian Assassins" is also okay. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 04:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

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	::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::::Lacrosse, I double-checked the AC1 game guide and both editions of ''The Essential Guide'' and can find no mention of Hassan-i Sabbah "captur[ing] Alamut from someone". Was this mentioned in ''Valhalla'' or ''Mirage''? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:::::I might be bringing in real world knowledge. I don't own any of the reference materials. Sima might know more. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say on Hassan's page that he captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)		I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
	::::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		:::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::OK. Then we type <nowiki>[[Assassins]]</nowiki> for the group from here on out instead of <nowiki>[[Assassins\|Hidden Ones]]</nowiki>? Just want to try and be clear since, as you said above, there's no official date for when the name changed. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

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	I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)		I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		:::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
			::::No. Those groups were still called Hidden Ones in their own time. The pages are merged just because the Hidden Ones and the Assassins are the same organization which is known by the latter name today. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:00, 29 November 2023
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	::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)		I have enacted the merge. I looked over what should be salvaged from this article, but most of its content was a history section that went far too much into detail into Bayek's specific exploits. The history could be and already has been condensed into "[[History of the Assassins]]" (although I have yet to review that page). It did not appear to me that there was any information missing from that page or "Assassins". That having been said, anyone may refer to this page's [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones?action=history old edit history] if you would like to verify if there's any information that should have been carried over but haven't yet. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:07, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
			:::So, since the pages have now been merged, should "Roman Hidden Ones", "Hidden Ones of Alamut", and "Hidden Ones of the Great Desert" all be renamed to match the format of other guilds, something like "Roman Brotherhood", "Alamut Brotherhood", and, uh..."Great Desert Brotherhood"? (this seems...off) – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 03:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:33, 21 November 2023
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	I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		I also cannot speak for reference materials that I do not have, but I do know Lacrosse is (almost) bringing in IRL knowledge. WP ''does'' say Hassan captured Alamut during the {{Wiki\|Nizari–Seljuk conflicts}} by converting the surrounding village and then the fort inhabitants his cause...but the former owner is unnamed and, excluding two references to Dr. {{Wiki\|Farhad Daftary}}'s book ''The Ismāʿı̄lı̄s: Their History and Doctrines'' 2nd ed., the section on Alamut's capture has a handful of <nowiki>{{Cite}}</nowiki> tags dating to May 2018. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
	:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)		:Name for former owner: Mahdi, a Zadyi Alid/Alavi. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
			::I think it's pretty clear that the idea of Hassan-i Sabbah conquering Alamut from someone else in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe or a schism happening among the Hidden Ones is too speculative at this time. It's a much more specific claim about the narrative than just Alamut belonging to the Hidden Ones in the 9th century and eventually it passed to Hassan-i Sabbah in some way. It is unfortunate that ''Mirage'' has Alamut already in their hands in the 9th century, but it reinforces the Hidden Ones and Assassins being the same organization. The only source I'm missing is the ''Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia''. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)