Talk:Chinese Brotherhood of Assassins - Revision history

imported>Darman36: /* Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones? */

2024-12-18T17:18:05Z

Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones?

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:18, 18 December 2024
Line 9:		Line 9:
	I would like to leave a notice here for all editors regarding the status of Chinese Assassins and their relationship with the Hidden Ones. I would do this on the forums, but I know that our editors patrol Recent Changes more than they do the forums, so I hope posting it here would give it more visibility.		I would like to leave a notice here for all editors regarding the status of Chinese Assassins and their relationship with the Hidden Ones. I would do this on the forums, but I know that our editors patrol Recent Changes more than they do the forums, so I hope posting it here would give it more visibility.

	There is some lingering confusion regarding whether the Five Assassins mentioned by Sima Qian in the ''Records of the Grand Historian'' were [[Assassins\|Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩]] or just assassins generically, particularly since we know from ''[[Assassin's Creed: Origins]]'' that the Hidden Ones were not founded until 47 BCE by Bayek and Aya, and the Assassin Brotherhood is the organization with clear continuity from the Hidden Ones. There has also been some confusion regarding whether the [[Northern Treasury of the World\|vault]] beneath the [[Mojia Village\|Mohist village]] in [[~~Qinghe Commandery\|~~Qinghe]] in ''[[Assassin's Creed: Dynasty]]'' belongs to the Assassins since it would seem to be separate from and predate the Hidden Ones' arrival in China via the protagonist [[Li E]].		There is some lingering confusion regarding whether the Five Assassins mentioned by Sima Qian in the ''Records of the Grand Historian'' were [[Assassins\|Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩]] or just assassins generically, particularly since we know from ''[[Assassin's Creed: Origins]]'' that the Hidden Ones were not founded until 47 BCE by Bayek and Aya, and the Assassin Brotherhood is the organization with clear continuity from the Hidden Ones. There has also been some confusion regarding whether the [[Northern Treasury of the World\|vault]] beneath the [[Mojia Village\|Mohist village]] in [[Qinghe]] in ''[[Assassin's Creed: Dynasty]]'' belongs to the Assassins since it would seem to be separate from and predate the Hidden Ones' arrival in China via the protagonist [[Li E]].

	We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:		We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:

imported>Darman36: /* Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones? */

2024-12-16T19:26:00Z

Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones?

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:26, 16 December 2024
Line 9:		Line 9:
	I would like to leave a notice here for all editors regarding the status of Chinese Assassins and their relationship with the Hidden Ones. I would do this on the forums, but I know that our editors patrol Recent Changes more than they do the forums, so I hope posting it here would give it more visibility.		I would like to leave a notice here for all editors regarding the status of Chinese Assassins and their relationship with the Hidden Ones. I would do this on the forums, but I know that our editors patrol Recent Changes more than they do the forums, so I hope posting it here would give it more visibility.

	There is some lingering confusion regarding whether the Five Assassins mentioned by Sima Qian in the ''Records of the Grand Historian'' were [[Assassins\|Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩]] or just assassins generically, particularly since we know from ''[[Assassin's Creed: Origins]]'' that the Hidden Ones were not founded until 47 BCE by Bayek and Aya, and the Assassin Brotherhood is the organization with clear continuity from the Hidden Ones. There has also been some confusion regarding whether the [[Northern Treasury of the World\|vault]] beneath the [[Mohist village]] in [[Qinghe Commandery\|Qinghe]] in ''[[Assassin's Creed: Dynasty]]'' belongs to the Assassins since it would seem to be separate from and predate the Hidden Ones' arrival in China via the protagonist [[Li E]].		There is some lingering confusion regarding whether the Five Assassins mentioned by Sima Qian in the ''Records of the Grand Historian'' were [[Assassins\|Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩]] or just assassins generically, particularly since we know from ''[[Assassin's Creed: Origins]]'' that the Hidden Ones were not founded until 47 BCE by Bayek and Aya, and the Assassin Brotherhood is the organization with clear continuity from the Hidden Ones. There has also been some confusion regarding whether the [[Northern Treasury of the World\|vault]] beneath the [[Mojia Village\|Mohist village]] in [[Qinghe Commandery\|Qinghe]] in ''[[Assassin's Creed: Dynasty]]'' belongs to the Assassins since it would seem to be separate from and predate the Hidden Ones' arrival in China via the protagonist [[Li E]].

	We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:		We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones? */

2023-04-04T00:10:54Z

Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones?

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:10, 4 April 2023
Line 13:		Line 13:
	We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:		We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:
	*'''A hard retcon has never been confirmed, and our role is to document sources at face value.'''		*'''A hard retcon has never been confirmed, and our role is to document sources at face value.'''
	:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as ~~''not''~~ Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/f/p/3795521403617287038 community determination] by consensus several years back.		:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/f/p/3795521403617287038 community determination] by consensus several years back.
	*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''		*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''
	:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by [[Xu Xianzhe]], the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with [[User:一个赛艇门\|Citingate (一个赛艇门)]], administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even if Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from [[The Hidden Ones (Part 2)\|Chapter 34]] now that [[Jing Ke]], [[Zhuan Zhu]], et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.		:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by [[Xu Xianzhe]], the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with [[User:一个赛艇门\|Citingate (一个赛艇门)]], administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even if Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from [[The Hidden Ones (Part 2)\|Chapter 34]] now that [[Jing Ke]], [[Zhuan Zhu]], et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones? */

2023-04-04T00:07:42Z

Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones?

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:07, 4 April 2023
Line 15:		Line 15:
	:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as ''not'' Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/f/p/3795521403617287038 community determination] by consensus several years back.		:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as ''not'' Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/f/p/3795521403617287038 community determination] by consensus several years back.
	*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''		*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''
	:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by Xu Xianzhe, the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with [[User:一个赛艇门\|Citingate (一个赛艇门)]], administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from Chapter 34 now that Jing Ke, Zhuan Zhu, et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.		:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by [[Xu Xianzhe]], the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with [[User:一个赛艇门\|Citingate (一个赛艇门)]], administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even if Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from [[The Hidden Ones (Part 2)\|Chapter 34]] now that [[Jing Ke]], [[Zhuan Zhu]], et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.
	*'''Individuals may be retrospectively celebrated as Assassins, so there is no real contradiction.'''		*'''Individuals may be retrospectively celebrated as Assassins, so there is no real contradiction.'''
	:None of this lore in fact has so far been irreconcilable with ''Origins'' lore because of the in-universe possibility of later generations retrospectively treating individuals like Darius, Wei Yu, etc. as Assassins despite these individuals not calling themselves as such in their own time. While this may seem like a factual error, another way of looking at it is the way the concept of the Assassin has evolved to the present day. Whether or not we agree with anachronistic projections into the past like this, our role is only to document faithfully how these terms are used in the sources.		:None of this lore in fact has so far been irreconcilable with ''Origins'' lore because of the in-universe possibility of later generations retrospectively treating individuals like [[Darius]], Wei Yu, etc. as Assassins despite these individuals not calling themselves as such in their own time. While this may seem like a factual error, another way of looking at it is the way the concept of the Assassin has evolved to the present day. Whether or not we agree with anachronistic projections into the past like this, our role is only to document faithfully how these terms are used in the sources.
	*'''The term used for Chinese Assassins is not actually "Assassin" but translated as such by later generations.'''		*'''The term used for Chinese Assassins is not actually "Assassin" but translated as such by later generations.'''
	:Finally, we should all bear in mind that the term used here for the Five Assassins is not actually the Persian name ''Assassin'' or ''Ḥaššāšīn'' (حَشّاشین), but the Chinese term 刺客 (Mandarin: ''cìkè'', Cantonese: ''ci<sup>3</sup> haak<sup>3</sup>''). This is the final nail in the coffin showing that Xu Xianzhe's work does not conflict with established lore. The term ''cìkè'' that became the name of the Chinese Assassins was not imported from the Assassins of Alamut, or otherwise it would be a phonetic transliteration like [https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%BF%E8%96%A9%E8%BE%9B%E6%B4%BE 阿薩辛] (Mandarin: ''Āsàxīn'') or something. Rather, we can explain the development from the in-universe perspective as the Cike being a group (or mantle) indigenous to China that coalesced by the end of the Warring States period and which predates the Hidden Ones. After the Hidden Ones were founded in the 1st century BCE, their influence into China likely arrived in different waves over the following centuries, following a similar trajectory and tempo of transmission as Buddhism. Earlier Hidden One influence than [[Éléna]]'s group via [[Li E]] brought the Hidden One symbol to the Cike and fused with them. Li E only represented the latest wave of Hidden One influence that made contact once more with the Hidden One/Cike tradition that had already developed in China. Centuries later, the Hidden Ones changed their name to the Assassins (حَشّاشین) and due to merger with the Cike, Cike also was translated into Assassin in addition to ''cike'' also being the common Chinese word for ''assassin''. Although the terminology is a more recent development (I'm still speaking from an IU-perspective here), it makes sense then why Cike even of the pre-Qin period are retrospectively translated as "Assassin". While for clarity's sake, we might argue that Chinese Assassins prior to Hidden One influence should be called Cike, this is not the usage in the ''Assassin's Creed'' sources. The [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeBrilliance fridge brilliance] of all of this is that it's a perfect reconciliation for the lore conflict between AC2 and ''Origins''. Although Assassins remain primarily defined by membership in the actual organization that used to be called the Hidden Ones, conceptually the identity of Assassin, like a "mantle", also broadened to include groups that contributed or merged into the Hidden Ones their own way.		:Finally, we should all bear in mind that the term used here for the Five Assassins is not actually the Persian name ''Assassin'' or ''Ḥaššāšīn'' (حَشّاشین), but the Chinese term 刺客 (Mandarin: ''cìkè'', Cantonese: ''ci<sup>3</sup> haak<sup>3</sup>''). This is the final nail in the coffin showing that Xu Xianzhe's work does not conflict with established lore. The term ''cìkè'' that became the name of the Chinese Assassins was not imported from the Assassins of Alamut, or otherwise it would be a phonetic transliteration like [https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%BF%E8%96%A9%E8%BE%9B%E6%B4%BE 阿薩辛] (Mandarin: ''Āsàxīn'') or something. Rather, we can explain the development from the in-universe perspective as the Cike being a group (or mantle) indigenous to China that coalesced by the end of the Warring States period and which predates the Hidden Ones. After the Hidden Ones were founded in the 1st century BCE, their influence into China likely arrived in different waves over the following centuries, following a similar trajectory and tempo of transmission as Buddhism. Earlier Hidden One influence than [[Éléna]]'s group via [[Li E]] brought the Hidden One symbol to the Cike and fused with them. Li E only represented the latest wave of Hidden One influence that made contact once more with the Hidden One/Cike tradition that had already developed in China. Centuries later, the Hidden Ones changed their name to the Assassins (حَشّاشین) and due to merger with the Cike, Cike also was translated into Assassin in addition to ''cike'' also being the common Chinese word for ''assassin''. Although the terminology is a more recent development (I'm still speaking from an IU-perspective here), it makes sense then why Cike even of the pre-Qin period are retrospectively translated as "Assassin". While for clarity's sake, we might argue that Chinese Assassins prior to Hidden One influence should be called Cike, this is not the usage in the ''Assassin's Creed'' sources. The [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeBrilliance fridge brilliance] of all of this is that it's a perfect reconciliation for the lore conflict between AC2 and ''Origins''. Although Assassins remain primarily defined by membership in the actual organization that used to be called the Hidden Ones, conceptually the identity of Assassin, like a "mantle", also broadened to include groups that contributed or merged into the Hidden Ones their own way.
	I said that this would be a brief summary, but as always, I do not know how to summarize. I hope this clarifies the matter for everyone, and please feel free to add any comments or questions. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 00:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)		I said that this would be a brief summary, but as always, I do not know how to summarize. I hope this clarifies the matter for everyone, and please feel free to add any comments or questions. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 00:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones? */

2023-04-04T00:05:20Z

Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones?

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:05, 4 April 2023
Line 15:		Line 15:
	:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as ''not'' Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/f/p/3795521403617287038 community determination] by consensus several years back.		:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as ''not'' Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/f/p/3795521403617287038 community determination] by consensus several years back.
	*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''		*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''
	:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by Xu Xianzhe, the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with Citingate, administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from Chapter 34 now that Jing Ke, Zhuan Zhu, et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.		:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by Xu Xianzhe, the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with [[User:一个赛艇门\|Citingate (一个赛艇门)]], administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from Chapter 34 now that Jing Ke, Zhuan Zhu, et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.
	*'''Individuals may be retrospectively celebrated as Assassins, so there is no real contradiction.'''		*'''Individuals may be retrospectively celebrated as Assassins, so there is no real contradiction.'''
	:None of this lore in fact has so far been irreconcilable with ''Origins'' lore because of the in-universe possibility of later generations retrospectively treating individuals like Darius, Wei Yu, etc. as Assassins despite these individuals not calling themselves as such in their own time. While this may seem like a factual error, another way of looking at it is the way the concept of the Assassin has evolved to the present day. Whether or not we agree with anachronistic projections into the past like this, our role is only to document faithfully how these terms are used in the sources.		:None of this lore in fact has so far been irreconcilable with ''Origins'' lore because of the in-universe possibility of later generations retrospectively treating individuals like Darius, Wei Yu, etc. as Assassins despite these individuals not calling themselves as such in their own time. While this may seem like a factual error, another way of looking at it is the way the concept of the Assassin has evolved to the present day. Whether or not we agree with anachronistic projections into the past like this, our role is only to document faithfully how these terms are used in the sources.

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones? */

2023-04-04T00:03:07Z

Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones?

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:03, 4 April 2023
Line 13:		Line 13:
	We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:		We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:
	*'''A hard retcon has never been confirmed, and our role is to document sources at face value.'''		*'''A hard retcon has never been confirmed, and our role is to document sources at face value.'''
	:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as ''not'' Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our community determination by consensus several years back.		:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as ''not'' Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/f/p/3795521403617287038 community determination] by consensus several years back.
	*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''		*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''
	:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by Xu Xianzhe, the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with Citingate, administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from Chapter 34 now that Jing Ke, Zhuan Zhu, et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.		:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by Xu Xianzhe, the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with Citingate, administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from Chapter 34 now that Jing Ke, Zhuan Zhu, et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones? */ new section

2023-04-04T00:01:13Z

Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones?: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:01, 4 April 2023
Line 4:		Line 4:

	Every Assassin branch is called "[nationality] Brotherhood of Assassins". This does not warrant a name change. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 22:30, January 4, 2016 (UTC)		Every Assassin branch is called "[nationality] Brotherhood of Assassins". This does not warrant a name change. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 22:30, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

			== Were there Chinese Assassins before the Hidden Ones? ==

			I would like to leave a notice here for all editors regarding the status of Chinese Assassins and their relationship with the Hidden Ones. I would do this on the forums, but I know that our editors patrol Recent Changes more than they do the forums, so I hope posting it here would give it more visibility.

			There is some lingering confusion regarding whether the Five Assassins mentioned by Sima Qian in the ''Records of the Grand Historian'' were [[Assassins\|Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩]] or just assassins generically, particularly since we know from ''[[Assassin's Creed: Origins]]'' that the Hidden Ones were not founded until 47 BCE by Bayek and Aya, and the Assassin Brotherhood is the organization with clear continuity from the Hidden Ones. There has also been some confusion regarding whether the [[Northern Treasury of the World\|vault]] beneath the [[Mohist village]] in [[Qinghe Commandery\|Qinghe]] in ''[[Assassin's Creed: Dynasty]]'' belongs to the Assassins since it would seem to be separate from and predate the Hidden Ones' arrival in China via the protagonist [[Li E]].

			We have held extensive discussions here and there on this topic already in several different places, particular on Discord. The conclusion is that everyone should take care to treat [[Wei Yu]], first mentioned in ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'' as the killer of [[Qin Shi Huang]], and five pre-Qin Assassins extolled by Sima Qian as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩. Here's a quick summary of the reasoning:
			*'''A hard retcon has never been confirmed, and our role is to document sources at face value.'''
			:Editors should take to remember that Ubisoft has never released an official statement that ''Origins'' explicitly declaring an all-encompassing and definitive retcon of all lore about the Assassins from early media like AC2 and ''[[Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood]]''. Our work acting as though ''Origins'' has enacted this retcon is by deduction only, but it is really a ''soft'' retcon at most. I will cite the principle [[User:Zero-ELEC\|Zero-ELEC]] raised that sourcing policy mandates that we treat both the lore given to us in AC2 and in ''Origins'' at ''face value''. We are ''not'' the arbiters of canonicity. We do not have the right to declare it incorrect to describe individuals like Wei Yu, Iltani, etc. as ''not'' Assassins when this has never been explicitly said in the media and can only be inferred by omission in the latest media. As a matter of fact, if we commit this fault, we can even inadvertently make a stronger retcon claim about the history of the Assassins than Ubisoft has intended. Taking ''Origins'' and AC2's lore at face value, we can only say that Wei Yu et al. predates the formal founding of the Assassins/Hidden Ones, but they were honoured as Assassins centuries later in Italy. This was our community determination by consensus several years back.
			*'''The concept of the Chinese Assassin is a mantle, and our role is to report this as it is.'''
			:This hints at a more malleable definition of the term, concept, and identity of "Assassin", which is taken upon by Xu Xianzhe, the author of ''Dynasty''. In his [https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/zh/wiki/%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7%E5%8D%9A%E5%AE%A2:%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%AA%E8%B5%9B%E8%89%87%E9%97%A8/%E5%B0%B1%E3%80%8A%E5%88%BA%E5%AE%A2%E4%BF%A1%E6%9D%A1%EF%BC%9A%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E3%80%8B%E7%9B%B8%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E5%AF%B9%E8%AE%B8%E5%85%88%E5%93%B2%E7%9A%84%E6%8F%90%E9%97%AE%E4%B8%8E%E8%A7%A3%E7%AD%94 Q&A] with Citingate, administrator of the Chinese wiki, he describes the Chinese Assassins as a "mantle" inherited by Li E. Whether or not we believe that this comports with ''Origins'' lore about Assassins, our place is to document the lore as written for us. Even Xu Xianzhe's work amounts to a soft retcon of ''Origins'' in turn, it is not our place to determine that such a retcon would be invalid by dismissing it. It is clear from Chapter 34 now that Jing Ke, Zhuan Zhu, et al. are being talked about as Assassins with a capital ⟨A⟩, and we have to report this as is.
			*'''Individuals may be retrospectively celebrated as Assassins, so there is no real contradiction.'''
			:None of this lore in fact has so far been irreconcilable with ''Origins'' lore because of the in-universe possibility of later generations retrospectively treating individuals like Darius, Wei Yu, etc. as Assassins despite these individuals not calling themselves as such in their own time. While this may seem like a factual error, another way of looking at it is the way the concept of the Assassin has evolved to the present day. Whether or not we agree with anachronistic projections into the past like this, our role is only to document faithfully how these terms are used in the sources.
			*'''The term used for Chinese Assassins is not actually "Assassin" but translated as such by later generations.'''
			:Finally, we should all bear in mind that the term used here for the Five Assassins is not actually the Persian name ''Assassin'' or ''Ḥaššāšīn'' (حَشّاشین), but the Chinese term 刺客 (Mandarin: ''cìkè'', Cantonese: ''ci<sup>3</sup> haak<sup>3</sup>''). This is the final nail in the coffin showing that Xu Xianzhe's work does not conflict with established lore. The term ''cìkè'' that became the name of the Chinese Assassins was not imported from the Assassins of Alamut, or otherwise it would be a phonetic transliteration like [https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%BF%E8%96%A9%E8%BE%9B%E6%B4%BE 阿薩辛] (Mandarin: ''Āsàxīn'') or something. Rather, we can explain the development from the in-universe perspective as the Cike being a group (or mantle) indigenous to China that coalesced by the end of the Warring States period and which predates the Hidden Ones. After the Hidden Ones were founded in the 1st century BCE, their influence into China likely arrived in different waves over the following centuries, following a similar trajectory and tempo of transmission as Buddhism. Earlier Hidden One influence than [[Éléna]]'s group via [[Li E]] brought the Hidden One symbol to the Cike and fused with them. Li E only represented the latest wave of Hidden One influence that made contact once more with the Hidden One/Cike tradition that had already developed in China. Centuries later, the Hidden Ones changed their name to the Assassins (حَشّاشین) and due to merger with the Cike, Cike also was translated into Assassin in addition to ''cike'' also being the common Chinese word for ''assassin''. Although the terminology is a more recent development (I'm still speaking from an IU-perspective here), it makes sense then why Cike even of the pre-Qin period are retrospectively translated as "Assassin". While for clarity's sake, we might argue that Chinese Assassins prior to Hidden One influence should be called Cike, this is not the usage in the ''Assassin's Creed'' sources. The [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeBrilliance fridge brilliance] of all of this is that it's a perfect reconciliation for the lore conflict between AC2 and ''Origins''. Although Assassins remain primarily defined by membership in the actual organization that used to be called the Hidden Ones, conceptually the identity of Assassin, like a "mantle", also broadened to include groups that contributed or merged into the Hidden Ones their own way.
			I said that this would be a brief summary, but as always, I do not know how to summarize. I hope this clarifies the matter for everyone, and please feel free to add any comments or questions. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 00:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

imported>RebeccaAWB: Adding {{Talkheader}}

2019-07-02T14:01:00Z

Adding {{Talkheader}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:01, 2 July 2019
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{Talkheader}}
	==Name change?==		==Name change?==
	I noticed that at the beginning of AC Chronicles China this group is called the Chinese Brotherhood of Assassins[[User:Hugues de Payens\|Hugues de Payens]] ([[User talk:Hugues de Payens\|talk]]) 22:20, January 4, 2016 (UTC)		I noticed that at the beginning of AC Chronicles China this group is called the Chinese Brotherhood of Assassins[[User:Hugues de Payens\|Hugues de Payens]] ([[User talk:Hugues de Payens\|talk]]) 22:20, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

	Every Assassin branch is called "[nationality] Brotherhood of Assassins". This does not warrant a name change. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 22:30, January 4, 2016 (UTC)		Every Assassin branch is called "[nationality] Brotherhood of Assassins". This does not warrant a name change. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 22:30, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: Sol Pacificus moved page Talk:Chinese Assassins to Talk:Chinese Brotherhood of Assassins: Since we've moved all the Templar branches to their official names, we should do the same with the Assassins for consistency. Source is ''The Essential Gu...

2017-02-14T17:33:11Z

Sol Pacificus moved page Talk:Chinese Assassins to Talk:Chinese Brotherhood of Assassins: Since we've moved all the Templar branches to their official names, we should do the same with the Assassins for consistency. Source is ''The Essential Gu...

← Older revision	Revision as of 19:33, 14 February 2017
(No difference)

imported>Master Sima Yi: /* Name change? */

2016-01-04T22:30:08Z

Name change?

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:30, 5 January 2016
Line 1:		Line 1:
	==Name change?==		==Name change?==
	I noticed that at the beginning of AC Chronicles China this group is called the Chinese Brotherhood of Assassins[[User:Hugues de Payens\|Hugues de Payens]] ([[User talk:Hugues de Payens\|talk]]) 22:20, January 4, 2016 (UTC)		I noticed that at the beginning of AC Chronicles China this group is called the Chinese Brotherhood of Assassins[[User:Hugues de Payens\|Hugues de Payens]] ([[User talk:Hugues de Payens\|talk]]) 22:20, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

			Every Assassin branch is called "[nationality] Brotherhood of Assassins". This does not warrant a name change. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 22:30, January 4, 2016 (UTC)