Talk:Assassin leader - Revision history

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* French council as leaders? */

2021-01-01T07:55:40Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:55, 1 January 2021
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	:I agree we should hear the input of others.[[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 09:12, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:I agree we should hear the input of others.[[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 09:12, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
			::Welp no one else really gave input on this; should we proceed with a rename to '''Assassin branch leader''' or '''Assassin guild leader'''? [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:55, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* French council as leaders? */

2019-11-02T09:12:35Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:12, 2 November 2019
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	:::::::Anyway, it's time I contribute to solutions to this. I haven't until now because it is my practice to try to bring out the full details of contrasting perspectives of something to have the most thorough understanding before jumping to solutions.		:::::::Anyway, it's time I contribute to solutions to this. I haven't until now because it is my practice to try to bring out the full details of contrasting perspectives of something to have the most thorough understanding before jumping to solutions.
	:::::::Although my ideal preference is for this page to be deleted or merged with "Mentor", since I am isolated in that stance (even if Sima might have changed his mind to the latter), of course I will not make a move to delete it.		:::::::Although my ideal preference is for this page to be deleted or merged with "Mentor", since I am isolated in that stance (even if Sima might have changed his mind to the latter), of course I will not make a move to delete it.
	::::::*I like your idea of renaming it to "Assassin branch leader" for clarity though I'm still a bit apprehensive that it would invite confusion over the fact Mentors are also branch leaders. Nevertheless, it is a better alternative to just "Assassin leader".
			::::::*I like your idea of renaming it to "Assassin branch leader" for clarity though I'm still a bit apprehensive that it would invite confusion over the fact Mentors are also branch leaders. Nevertheless, it is a better alternative to just "Assassin leader".
	::::::*In addition to this, I would like us to be very strict with the inclusion of members to this page. They must clearly be heads of branches who we know for a fact weren't Mentors rather than simply heads of branches who we ''aren't sure'' of their status as Mentors. This also helps with clarifying the meaning of this article so that people know that it's not referring to just any ol' Assassin in a leadership role. Going back to your very original question, all members of the French Council at the time of the French Revolution should be removed. If this page specifically refers to Assassin heads of branches who were not Mentors, then none in the French Council qualifies since Mirabeau was a Mentor and the others were his subordinates.		::::::*In addition to this, I would like us to be very strict with the inclusion of members to this page. They must clearly be heads of branches who we know for a fact weren't Mentors rather than simply heads of branches who we ''aren't sure'' of their status as Mentors. This also helps with clarifying the meaning of this article so that people know that it's not referring to just any ol' Assassin in a leadership role. Going back to your very original question, all members of the French Council at the time of the French Revolution should be removed. If this page specifically refers to Assassin heads of branches who were not Mentors, then none in the French Council qualifies since Mirabeau was a Mentor and the others were his subordinates.
	::::::*Based on the sources we have, cells do constitute branches as I think I've explained to you recently in another talk page. The cell system is just the form Assassin branches have devolved to because of their present day circumstances, but for example, the remaining cell in Japan is still called the Osaka Brotherhood. When there is a clear leader of a cell as the leader of that branch, they should be included. I think for the Osaka Brotherhood, this would be that elderly lady whose name I forgot... ._. But as in the previous point, we should be strict about this and not add individuals just because they were cell leaders. I think maybe it should be clear that that cell represents a branch as is the case with the Osaka cell for Japan.		::::::*Based on the sources we have, cells do constitute branches as I think I've explained to you recently in another talk page. The cell system is just the form Assassin branches have devolved to because of their present day circumstances, but for example, the remaining cell in Japan is still called the Osaka Brotherhood. When there is a clear leader of a cell as the leader of that branch, they should be included. I think for the Osaka Brotherhood, this would be that elderly lady whose name I forgot... ._. But as in the previous point, we should be strict about this and not add individuals just because they were cell leaders. I think maybe it should be clear that that cell represents a branch as is the case with the Osaka cell for Japan.
	::::::*We should openly explain in the Trivia (or a Behind the Scenes) section the origin of this article lying in the confusion caused by Ubisoft's evolving definition of the rank of "Mentor".		::::::*We should openly explain in the Trivia (or a Behind the Scenes) section the origin of this article lying in the confusion caused by Ubisoft's evolving definition of the rank of "Mentor".

	:::::::Is this good? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 04:42, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::::::Is this good? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 04:42, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
	::::::::Personally I feel excluding Mentors from the page would invite more confusion. It would imply that they are something different which to me implies some sort of hierarchy or ranking. As I said earlier it's like squares and rectangles; we include scimitars on the swords page even though we have a separate page for scimitars, don't we?		::::::::Personally I feel excluding Mentors from the page would invite more confusion. It would imply that they are something different which to me implies some sort of hierarchy or ranking. As I said earlier it's like squares and rectangles; we include scimitars on the swords page even though we have a separate page for scimitars, don't we?
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	:::::::::La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc. are not leaders of different guilds. The Italian Brotherhood is a single Guild, and its Mentor from AC2 to ''Brotherhood'' was Mario, then Machiavelli, then Ezio. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:18, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::::::::La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc. are not leaders of different guilds. The Italian Brotherhood is a single Guild, and its Mentor from AC2 to ''Brotherhood'' was Mario, then Machiavelli, then Ezio. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:18, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
	That's how I feel about it but obviously we should get Sima's input and others as well. As I've said I don't have any of the reference books so I don't how exactly they define the term Mentor. I misread your last point on the cell leaders but yes I agree with that. As for my last point I meant how La Volpe is the leader of the Florentine and Roman Thieves guilds. When I mentioned it I was operating on the faulty assumption of your view on cell leaders. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:54, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		That's how I feel about it but obviously we should get Sima's input and others as well. As I've said I don't have any of the reference books so I don't how exactly they define the term Mentor. I misread your last point on the cell leaders but yes I agree with that. As for my last point I meant how La Volpe is the leader of the Florentine and Roman Thieves guilds. When I mentioned it I was operating on the faulty assumption of your view on cell leaders. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:54, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
			:After reviewing the page's list more closely, I find that the non-Mentors on this list are either (a) known exceptions to being Mentors (b) cell leaders (c) minor characters from novels whose status as heads of branches I cannot verify. I'm very apprehensive as to (c) since there is a history of contributors adding characters to this page without double-checking whether they actually headed a branch or were merely a prominent Assassin. Henry Green is a key example as he was merely the bureau leader of London not the head of the British Brotherhood at the time of ''Syndicate''. The game at the beginning makes it clear that Henry's post was one neglected by the higher-ups of the British Brotherhood because they thought London was a lost cause. Yusuf Tazim, Dogan, Edward Kenway, Miko, and Claudia Auditore constitute the known exceptions to being Mentors. Fang Xiaoru is only one on the list I find who likely would have been a Mentor, but it is not known at this time. I am not sure if I am comfortable with the inclusion of "proto-Assassin" leaders though. In any case, I think that the overlap with the Mentors list is quite significant ''if'' those from the novels are verified to not have been Mentors or whose rank we are uncertain if we brush aside cell leaders, leaving only those four exceptions.

			:After taking a look at the [[Templar leader]] page as well though, I actually have thought of one argument why these two pages should continue to exist: for the convenience of readers in having an entire list of known heads of branches regardless of their status. That, I believe is the strongest argument why we might keep these two pages.

			:I agree we should hear the input of others.[[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 09:12, November 2, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* French council as leaders? */

2019-11-02T08:55:02Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:55, 2 November 2019
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	:::::::::Your reservations about including all cell leaders is precisely why I have proposed that we do not.		:::::::::Your reservations about including all cell leaders is precisely why I have proposed that we do not.
	:::::::::La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc. are not leaders of different guilds. The Italian Brotherhood is a single Guild, and its Mentor from AC2 to ''Brotherhood'' was Mario, then Machiavelli, then Ezio. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:18, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::::::::La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc. are not leaders of different guilds. The Italian Brotherhood is a single Guild, and its Mentor from AC2 to ''Brotherhood'' was Mario, then Machiavelli, then Ezio. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:18, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
	~~Obviously~~ we should get Sima's input and others as well. As I've said I don't have any of the reference books so I don't how exactly they define the term Mentor. I misread your last point on the cell leaders but yes I agree with that. As for my last point I meant how La Volpe is the leader of the Florentine and Roman Thieves guilds. When I mentioned it I was operating on the faulty assumption of your view on cell leaders. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:54, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		That's how I feel about it but obviously we should get Sima's input and others as well. As I've said I don't have any of the reference books so I don't how exactly they define the term Mentor. I misread your last point on the cell leaders but yes I agree with that. As for my last point I meant how La Volpe is the leader of the Florentine and Roman Thieves guilds. When I mentioned it I was operating on the faulty assumption of your view on cell leaders. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:54, November 2, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* French council as leaders? */

2019-11-02T08:54:21Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:54, 2 November 2019
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	:::::::::Your reservations about including all cell leaders is precisely why I have proposed that we do not.		:::::::::Your reservations about including all cell leaders is precisely why I have proposed that we do not.
	:::::::::La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc. are not leaders of different guilds. The Italian Brotherhood is a single Guild, and its Mentor from AC2 to ''Brotherhood'' was Mario, then Machiavelli, then Ezio. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:18, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::::::::La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc. are not leaders of different guilds. The Italian Brotherhood is a single Guild, and its Mentor from AC2 to ''Brotherhood'' was Mario, then Machiavelli, then Ezio. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:18, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
			Obviously we should get Sima's input and others as well. As I've said I don't have any of the reference books so I don't how exactly they define the term Mentor. I misread your last point on the cell leaders but yes I agree with that. As for my last point I meant how La Volpe is the leader of the Florentine and Roman Thieves guilds. When I mentioned it I was operating on the faulty assumption of your view on cell leaders. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 08:54, November 2, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* French council as leaders? */

2019-11-02T08:18:46Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:18, 2 November 2019
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	::::::::My reservation's about including all cell leaders however is knowing when they fall outside the jurisdiction of the "Worldwide leaders", at least post purge. Russia and Japan seem to do this but I'm not sure Layla's, Janice's, Adriano's, etc do.		::::::::My reservation's about including all cell leaders however is knowing when they fall outside the jurisdiction of the "Worldwide leaders", at least post purge. Russia and Japan seem to do this but I'm not sure Layla's, Janice's, Adriano's, etc do.
	::::::::On that note I think we should discuss individuals like La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc who are Assassins and leaders of specific guilds affiliated with the Assassins but still fall under someone else's authority. I think it's an easy "no, they don't qualify" but I'd feel remiss to not bring them up. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:58, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		::::::::On that note I think we should discuss individuals like La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc who are Assassins and leaders of specific guilds affiliated with the Assassins but still fall under someone else's authority. I think it's an easy "no, they don't qualify" but I'd feel remiss to not bring them up. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:58, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
			:::::::::So we're defining "Assassin branch leaders" as anyone who heads a branch regardless of whether or not they're a Mentor after all? Not as heads of branches who are known to not be Mentors? This contradicts the reason Sima has stated multiple times as to why he created this page in the first place. I'm really not comfortable with this sort of constant shifting in how we define this... At this point, I don't even know which is more correct. If this page encompasses Mentors anyways, and Mentor, as defined by the latest sources, is the title of the head of an Assassin Guild, with those who are not Mentors being exceptions, then I don't see why we shouldn't just have this page merged with "Mentor". It essentially describes the exact same position at this point except that it seems to treat branch leaders being Mentors as an exception when sources would imply that a branch leader not being a Mentor is an exception. Why not just have one article on Mentors which mentions that there are a few exceptions? This would be cleaner and gets rid of all this speculation we have going on with this being an official position.
			:::::::::Your reservations about including all cell leaders is precisely why I have proposed that we do not.
			:::::::::La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc. are not leaders of different guilds. The Italian Brotherhood is a single Guild, and its Mentor from AC2 to ''Brotherhood'' was Mario, then Machiavelli, then Ezio. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:18, November 2, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* French council as leaders? */

2019-11-02T07:58:49Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:58, 2 November 2019
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	::::::*We should openly explain in the Trivia (or a Behind the Scenes) section the origin of this article lying in the confusion caused by Ubisoft's evolving definition of the rank of "Mentor".		::::::*We should openly explain in the Trivia (or a Behind the Scenes) section the origin of this article lying in the confusion caused by Ubisoft's evolving definition of the rank of "Mentor".
	:::::::Is this good? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 04:42, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::::::Is this good? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 04:42, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
			::::::::Personally I feel excluding Mentors from the page would invite more confusion. It would imply that they are something different which to me implies some sort of hierarchy or ranking. As I said earlier it's like squares and rectangles; we include scimitars on the swords page even though we have a separate page for scimitars, don't we?
			::::::::My reservation's about including all cell leaders however is knowing when they fall outside the jurisdiction of the "Worldwide leaders", at least post purge. Russia and Japan seem to do this but I'm not sure Layla's, Janice's, Adriano's, etc do.
			::::::::On that note I think we should discuss individuals like La Volpe, Paola, Bartolomeo, etc who are Assassins and leaders of specific guilds affiliated with the Assassins but still fall under someone else's authority. I think it's an easy "no, they don't qualify" but I'd feel remiss to not bring them up. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 07:58, November 2, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* French council as leaders? */

2019-11-02T04:42:10Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:42, 2 November 2019
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	:::::"''And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it''." Yet here we are doing this even at this very moment. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:17, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::::"''And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it''." Yet here we are doing this even at this very moment. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:17, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
	::::::Ubisoft seems very reluctant to explicitly say they've retconned things but given that Yusuf is the classic example and this wasn't changed in Rebellion where he is described just as the leader while Ishak on the other hand is explicitly mentioned as a Mentor says to me it hasn't been fully retconned, at least not regarding Yusuf. All future branch leaders might be Mentor from now on to clear confusion but the fact that this isn't always the case is still valid. However renaming this article '''Assassin branch leader''' would clear up the cell leader confusion. And I disagree that's what we are doing. Ubisoft defined it when they made Yusuf the leader of the Ottoman assassins without making him a Mentor. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:51, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		::::::Ubisoft seems very reluctant to explicitly say they've retconned things but given that Yusuf is the classic example and this wasn't changed in Rebellion where he is described just as the leader while Ishak on the other hand is explicitly mentioned as a Mentor says to me it hasn't been fully retconned, at least not regarding Yusuf. All future branch leaders might be Mentor from now on to clear confusion but the fact that this isn't always the case is still valid. However renaming this article '''Assassin branch leader''' would clear up the cell leader confusion. And I disagree that's what we are doing. Ubisoft defined it when they made Yusuf the leader of the Ottoman assassins without making him a Mentor. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:51, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
			:::::::According to what Sima reported from asking Darby about this matter, Yusuf's status as not a Mentor was written at a time when "Mentor" was not clearly defined by Ubisoft, and Darby himself has regrets about it. I agree that there should be explicit sources for a retcon, and I have often disagreed with Sima regarding presuming things being retcon based on our inference of Ubisoft's intentions rather than what is expressly given to us in sources (e.g. that the Babylonian Brotherhood is no longer a thing, not even as a retrospective name for Iltani's group given by later Assassins), but I think that we should not take Yusuf as such a strong supporting evidence of anything given Darby's own admission of confusion about it. Of course, Yusuf is still, as far as we know, not a Mentor, but before proceeding further, I think it is important that we take a step back from the idea that it is such a golden example because doing so would mean failing to recognize the origin of it lying in Ubisoft's own confusion over the matter.
			:::::::Our development of this concept stems directly from trying to resolve Ubisoft's confusion, not because it was clearly articulated by Ubisoft. Take for example that this article has at times read that "Mentor" is an honorific given to certain Assassin branch leaders (such as Ezio) not that it is mutually exclusive from it. Disagreements over this on our part over the technical specifics of an Assassin branch leader is a result of us developing this concept on our own independent of canonical sources articulating this matter. We deduced the existence of this role based on Yusuf (rest his soul) while developing its technicalities on our own. We should be honest with ourselves, as a matter of principle, that based in certain canonical facts or not, the development of this concept and what it entails is our own.
			:::::::Anyway, it's time I contribute to solutions to this. I haven't until now because it is my practice to try to bring out the full details of contrasting perspectives of something to have the most thorough understanding before jumping to solutions.
			:::::::Although my ideal preference is for this page to be deleted or merged with "Mentor", since I am isolated in that stance (even if Sima might have changed his mind to the latter), of course I will not make a move to delete it.
			::::::*I like your idea of renaming it to "Assassin branch leader" for clarity though I'm still a bit apprehensive that it would invite confusion over the fact Mentors are also branch leaders. Nevertheless, it is a better alternative to just "Assassin leader".
			::::::*In addition to this, I would like us to be very strict with the inclusion of members to this page. They must clearly be heads of branches who we know for a fact weren't Mentors rather than simply heads of branches who we ''aren't sure'' of their status as Mentors. This also helps with clarifying the meaning of this article so that people know that it's not referring to just any ol' Assassin in a leadership role. Going back to your very original question, all members of the French Council at the time of the French Revolution should be removed. If this page specifically refers to Assassin heads of branches who were not Mentors, then none in the French Council qualifies since Mirabeau was a Mentor and the others were his subordinates.
			::::::*Based on the sources we have, cells do constitute branches as I think I've explained to you recently in another talk page. The cell system is just the form Assassin branches have devolved to because of their present day circumstances, but for example, the remaining cell in Japan is still called the Osaka Brotherhood. When there is a clear leader of a cell as the leader of that branch, they should be included. I think for the Osaka Brotherhood, this would be that elderly lady whose name I forgot... ._. But as in the previous point, we should be strict about this and not add individuals just because they were cell leaders. I think maybe it should be clear that that cell represents a branch as is the case with the Osaka cell for Japan.
			::::::*We should openly explain in the Trivia (or a Behind the Scenes) section the origin of this article lying in the confusion caused by Ubisoft's evolving definition of the rank of "Mentor".
			:::::::Is this good? [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 04:42, November 2, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* French council as leaders? */

2019-11-02T03:51:49Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:51, 2 November 2019
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	:::::The point is that we actually aren't sure if canonically there really were still individuals who were in charge of branches who weren't Mentors or if this has been retconned. We're also not sure if, in the case where an individual who led a branch wasn't a Mentor, if it was actually the case that their rank was just a Master Assassin who shared equal power with other Master Assassins and just happened to be the most respected. In such a case, we then won't know if we should only include one individual or others alongside that individual who may have shared equal rank. We also aren't sure if we should be excluding cell leaders.		:::::The point is that we actually aren't sure if canonically there really were still individuals who were in charge of branches who weren't Mentors or if this has been retconned. We're also not sure if, in the case where an individual who led a branch wasn't a Mentor, if it was actually the case that their rank was just a Master Assassin who shared equal power with other Master Assassins and just happened to be the most respected. In such a case, we then won't know if we should only include one individual or others alongside that individual who may have shared equal rank. We also aren't sure if we should be excluding cell leaders.
	:::::"''And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it''." Yet here we are doing this even at this very moment. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:17, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::::"''And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it''." Yet here we are doing this even at this very moment. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:17, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
			::::::Ubisoft seems very reluctant to explicitly say they've retconned things but given that Yusuf is the classic example and this wasn't changed in Rebellion where he is described just as the leader while Ishak on the other hand is explicitly mentioned as a Mentor says to me it hasn't been fully retconned, at least not regarding Yusuf. All future branch leaders might be Mentor from now on to clear confusion but the fact that this isn't always the case is still valid. However renaming this article '''Assassin branch leader''' would clear up the cell leader confusion. And I disagree that's what we are doing. Ubisoft defined it when they made Yusuf the leader of the Ottoman assassins without making him a Mentor. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:51, November 2, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* French council as leaders? */ I don't know what is wrong with me atm, my mind is skipping words when I'm writing

2019-11-02T03:19:47Z

French council as leaders?: I don't know what is wrong with me atm, my mind is skipping words when I'm writing

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:19, 2 November 2019
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	:::And we could, but that still doesn't change the fact that we ourselves are the ones deciding how to define "Assassin leader". This is why I brought up the four possible ways to define it. The fact that we are having this discussion about how it is defined shows that the definition and the concept has not been firmly established in canon. Even Sima had last said that perhaps it should be merged with "Mentor" since it is no longer clear if Ubisoft had intended a complete retcon over any head of a branch not being a Mentor. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:28, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::And we could, but that still doesn't change the fact that we ourselves are the ones deciding how to define "Assassin leader". This is why I brought up the four possible ways to define it. The fact that we are having this discussion about how it is defined shows that the definition and the concept has not been firmly established in canon. Even Sima had last said that perhaps it should be merged with "Mentor" since it is no longer clear if Ubisoft had intended a complete retcon over any head of a branch not being a Mentor. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:28, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
	::::Yes I did mean "''Then we should rephrase the article to make it clear that it's ''not'' an official or formal rank''. Although I do feel it is still a position someone occupies or maybe role is a better description. And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it. Unless you are referring to how we exclude the aforementioned cell leaders in which case the article's name should be changed to reflect that. I also disagree with the merger because their would be nothing to move over to the Mentor page all that would happen is that we lose the distinction that there were individuals who were in charge of branches that weren't Mentors. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:50, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		::::Yes I did mean "''Then we should rephrase the article to make it clear that it's ''not'' an official or formal rank''. Although I do feel it is still a position someone occupies or maybe role is a better description. And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it. Unless you are referring to how we exclude the aforementioned cell leaders in which case the article's name should be changed to reflect that. I also disagree with the merger because their would be nothing to move over to the Mentor page all that would happen is that we lose the distinction that there were individuals who were in charge of branches that weren't Mentors. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:50, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
	:::::The point is that we actually aren't sure if canonically there really were still individuals who were in charge of branches who weren't Mentors if this has been retconned. We're also not sure if, in the case where an individual who led a branch wasn't a Mentor, if their rank was ~~actually~~ just a Master Assassin who shared equal power with other Master Assassins and just happened to be the most respected. In such a case, we then won't know if we should only include one individual or others alongside that individual who may have shared equal rank. We also aren't sure if we should be excluding cell leaders.		:::::The point is that we actually aren't sure if canonically there really were still individuals who were in charge of branches who weren't Mentors or if this has been retconned. We're also not sure if, in the case where an individual who led a branch wasn't a Mentor, if it was actually the case that their rank was just a Master Assassin who shared equal power with other Master Assassins and just happened to be the most respected. In such a case, we then won't know if we should only include one individual or others alongside that individual who may have shared equal rank. We also aren't sure if we should be excluding cell leaders.
	:::::"''And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it''." Yet here we are even at this very moment. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:17, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::::"''And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it''." Yet here we are doing this even at this very moment. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:17, November 2, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* French council as leaders? */

2019-11-02T03:17:00Z

French council as leaders?

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:17, 2 November 2019
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	:::And we could, but that still doesn't change the fact that we ourselves are the ones deciding how to define "Assassin leader". This is why I brought up the four possible ways to define it. The fact that we are having this discussion about how it is defined shows that the definition and the concept has not been firmly established in canon. Even Sima had last said that perhaps it should be merged with "Mentor" since it is no longer clear if Ubisoft had intended a complete retcon over any head of a branch not being a Mentor. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:28, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		:::And we could, but that still doesn't change the fact that we ourselves are the ones deciding how to define "Assassin leader". This is why I brought up the four possible ways to define it. The fact that we are having this discussion about how it is defined shows that the definition and the concept has not been firmly established in canon. Even Sima had last said that perhaps it should be merged with "Mentor" since it is no longer clear if Ubisoft had intended a complete retcon over any head of a branch not being a Mentor. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:28, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
	::::Yes I did mean "''Then we should rephrase the article to make it clear that it's ''not'' an official or formal rank''. Although I do feel it is still a position someone occupies or maybe role is a better description. And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it. Unless you are referring to how we exclude the aforementioned cell leaders in which case the article's name should be changed to reflect that. I also disagree with the merger because their would be nothing to move over to the Mentor page all that would happen is that we lose the distinction that there were individuals who were in charge of branches that weren't Mentors. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:50, November 2, 2019 (UTC)		::::Yes I did mean "''Then we should rephrase the article to make it clear that it's ''not'' an official or formal rank''. Although I do feel it is still a position someone occupies or maybe role is a better description. And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it. Unless you are referring to how we exclude the aforementioned cell leaders in which case the article's name should be changed to reflect that. I also disagree with the merger because their would be nothing to move over to the Mentor page all that would happen is that we lose the distinction that there were individuals who were in charge of branches that weren't Mentors. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:50, November 2, 2019 (UTC)
			:::::The point is that we actually aren't sure if canonically there really were still individuals who were in charge of branches who weren't Mentors if this has been retconned. We're also not sure if, in the case where an individual who led a branch wasn't a Mentor, if their rank was actually just a Master Assassin who shared equal power with other Master Assassins and just happened to be the most respected. In such a case, we then won't know if we should only include one individual or others alongside that individual who may have shared equal rank. We also aren't sure if we should be excluding cell leaders.
			:::::"''And I disagree that we are the ones deciding how to define it''." Yet here we are even at this very moment. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:17, November 2, 2019 (UTC)