Talk:American Brotherhood of Assassins - Revision history

Soranin: /* Splitting the article: Californian Brotherhood */

2026-05-19T14:54:54Z

Splitting the article: Californian Brotherhood

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	::::Also, I actually do think that Desmond's team really should have its own article. I think it's presumptuous to have it fall under American Brotherhood. This is similar to Master Sima Yi's proposal, only that I'm not too sure about splitting off Colonial vs. American Brotherhood exactly, but at least to split off Desmond's team. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:29, July 18, 2017 (UTC)		::::Also, I actually do think that Desmond's team really should have its own article. I think it's presumptuous to have it fall under American Brotherhood. This is similar to Master Sima Yi's proposal, only that I'm not too sure about splitting off Colonial vs. American Brotherhood exactly, but at least to split off Desmond's team. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:29, July 18, 2017 (UTC)
	:::::I'm not at all objecting to Desmond's and Charlotte's teams having their own articles, I just wish to organize it in such a way that we're consistent. I suppose we could make exceptions for their teams on the basis that they're both international cells that are no longer (or were never) limited to any specific city or state. Local cells can still be listed within their specific Brotherhood pages. [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 01:16, July 19, 2017 (UTC)		:::::I'm not at all objecting to Desmond's and Charlotte's teams having their own articles, I just wish to organize it in such a way that we're consistent. I suppose we could make exceptions for their teams on the basis that they're both international cells that are no longer (or were never) limited to any specific city or state. Local cells can still be listed within their specific Brotherhood pages. [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 01:16, July 19, 2017 (UTC)
	::::::For the point about it not being Californian anymore because it's no longer based in California, as I said earlier, I think it makes more sense to think of the geographical designation as being defined by where they originated in or operated from. From there, they take their name, and even if the name is no longer accurate, if it's the best lead on the group's name or was their name at some point, then it is fine as a conjectural title for their article. Aside from that, it's entirely possible for a group to maintain a name that's no longer geographically accurate. Take the Byzantine Empire, for example, which for its entire existence was still officially the Roman Empire because even if it's clear that they've become hella Hellenized and have long been sundered from Rome, they maintained their claim to their origins and their official name. Over at Wookieepedia, it is understood that conjectural names, while ideally accurate, can technically be pretty much anything. For example [[w:c:starwars:Justice Jedi\|Justice Jedi]] for this dude who we only know of as a guy who screamed "Justice" before dying... Nevermind! Someone renamed it without a discussion, but for many, many years, I remember admins affirmed it was fine as a conjectural name. In any case, you don't think "Californian Assassin cell" changes anything? That format isn't exactly correct if they meant it as purely descriptive. It would literally be the closest thing we have to a canonical name for the cell even if they're no longer in California. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:27, July 18, 2017 (UTC)		::::::For the point about it not being Californian anymore because it's no longer based in California, as I said earlier, I think it makes more sense to think of the geographical designation as being defined by where they originated in or operated from. From there, they take their name, and even if the name is no longer accurate, if it's the best lead on the group's name or was their name at some point, then it is fine as a conjectural title for their article. Aside from that, it's entirely possible for a group to maintain a name that's no longer geographically accurate. Take the Byzantine Empire, for example, which for its entire existence was still officially the Roman Empire because even if it's clear that they've become hella Hellenized and have long been sundered from Rome, they maintained their claim to their origins and their official name. Over at Wookieepedia, it is understood that conjectural names, while ideally accurate, can technically be pretty much anything. For example [w:c:starwars:Justice Jedi\|Justice Jedi] for this dude who we only know of as a guy who screamed "Justice" before dying... Nevermind! Someone renamed it without a discussion, but for many, many years, I remember admins affirmed it was fine as a conjectural name. In any case, you don't think "Californian Assassin cell" changes anything? That format isn't exactly correct if they meant it as purely descriptive. It would literally be the closest thing we have to a canonical name for the cell even if they're no longer in California. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:27, July 18, 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::I don't think the Byzantine Empire is a good example, given that the name is being applied retroactively. As for the cell, while it's true that we can technically name it whatever we like. I still think that, if we are aiming for the utmost accurate name, calling them "Charlotte de la Cruz's Assassin cell" is still more accurate than "Californian Assassin cell", given that they basically stopped being a local cell following Xavier's death. Not to mention the fact that it would fit the naming scheme of Desmond's team, assuming that we would call them "Desmond Miles' Assassin cell". [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 01:52, July 19, 2017 (UTC)		:::::::I don't think the Byzantine Empire is a good example, given that the name is being applied retroactively. As for the cell, while it's true that we can technically name it whatever we like. I still think that, if we are aiming for the utmost accurate name, calling them "Charlotte de la Cruz's Assassin cell" is still more accurate than "Californian Assassin cell", given that they basically stopped being a local cell following Xavier's death. Not to mention the fact that it would fit the naming scheme of Desmond's team, assuming that we would call them "Desmond Miles' Assassin cell". [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 01:52, July 19, 2017 (UTC)
	::::::::I think you should reread my example with the Byzantine Empire because the point is their usage of the name "Roman Empire" not the retroactive name "Byzantine Empire" (which would make absolutely no sense to my point). I kind of fear you're not addressing my counter-argument or Sima Yi's in fact, that being a cell originating in California doesn't mean they're limited to operating only in California or that names, being what they are, can reflect origins and aren't always necessarily changed just because they've moved. In any case, "California Assassin cell" is most accurate aside from my counter-argument above, by mere virtue that it's sourced (to the point it might not even be conjectural). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 00:07, July 19, 2017 (UTC)		::::::::I think you should reread my example with the Byzantine Empire because the point is their usage of the name "Roman Empire" not the retroactive name "Byzantine Empire" (which would make absolutely no sense to my point). I kind of fear you're not addressing my counter-argument or Sima Yi's in fact, that being a cell originating in California doesn't mean they're limited to operating only in California or that names, being what they are, can reflect origins and aren't always necessarily changed just because they've moved. In any case, "California Assassin cell" is most accurate aside from my counter-argument above, by mere virtue that it's sourced (to the point it might not even be conjectural). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 00:07, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Revisit? */

2024-07-18T06:09:40Z

Revisit?

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	::::::::I'd keep them separate, tbh. While these were closer, in the same soon-to-be nation by that time, they had different jurisdictions, different Mentors, not to mention their respective origins are also different. One started with John de la Tour under the French Council's orders and the other probably has its roots emerging thanks to the West Indies Brotherhood.<br/>EDIT: Come to think of it... was it ever confirmed if Aveline joined Connor's group after the events of their respective games? In the Black Flag Aveline DLC, Connor contacts her but not as if she was a member of his group, his letter was not an order but a request for help. But her grandson does become of the American Brotherhood in later years. Would this mean Aveline eventually joined Connor's group with her allies? Or did she establish her own branch? Or that's still unknown?[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)		::::::::I'd keep them separate, tbh. While these were closer, in the same soon-to-be nation by that time, they had different jurisdictions, different Mentors, not to mention their respective origins are also different. One started with John de la Tour under the French Council's orders and the other probably has its roots emerging thanks to the West Indies Brotherhood.<br/>EDIT: Come to think of it... was it ever confirmed if Aveline joined Connor's group after the events of their respective games? In the Black Flag Aveline DLC, Connor contacts her but not as if she was a member of his group, his letter was not an order but a request for help. But her grandson does become of the American Brotherhood in later years. Would this mean Aveline eventually joined Connor's group with her allies? Or did she establish her own branch? Or that's still unknown?[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
			Cris, Francesco is asking if the American Brotherhood should be split into two articles: Colonial Brotherhood and American Brotherhood. I'm a bit confused with your answer, and I'm not sure if you understood. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Cristophorus35: Reply edited.

2024-07-18T04:42:34Z

Reply edited.

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	:::::::Thanks for the source, Liberation database never said if he founded it. And I just made a reflection, that technically Gerald Blanc is the de facto leader of the Louisiana Brotherhood in the late 1770s as the Aveline DLC implied that Aveline didn't work directly for the Assassins (te database entry and Connor's letter).[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 05:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)		:::::::Thanks for the source, Liberation database never said if he founded it. And I just made a reflection, that technically Gerald Blanc is the de facto leader of the Louisiana Brotherhood in the late 1770s as the Aveline DLC implied that Aveline didn't work directly for the Assassins (te database entry and Connor's letter).[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 05:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

	::::::::I'd keep them separate, tbh. While these were closer, in the same soon-to-be nation by that time, they had different jurisdictions, different Mentors, not to mention their respective origins are also different. One started with John de la Tour under the French Council's orders and the other probably has its roots emerging thanks to the West Indies Brotherhood.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)		::::::::I'd keep them separate, tbh. While these were closer, in the same soon-to-be nation by that time, they had different jurisdictions, different Mentors, not to mention their respective origins are also different. One started with John de la Tour under the French Council's orders and the other probably has its roots emerging thanks to the West Indies Brotherhood.<br/>EDIT: Come to think of it... was it ever confirmed if Aveline joined Connor's group after the events of their respective games? In the Black Flag Aveline DLC, Connor contacts her but not as if she was a member of his group, his letter was not an order but a request for help. But her grandson does become of the American Brotherhood in later years. Would this mean Aveline eventually joined Connor's group with her allies? Or did she establish her own branch? Or that's still unknown?[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Cristophorus35: Reply sent

2024-07-17T11:18:35Z

Reply sent

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	:::::::Thanks for the source, Liberation database never said if he founded it. And I just made a reflection, that technically Gerald Blanc is the de facto leader of the Louisiana Brotherhood in the late 1770s as the Aveline DLC implied that Aveline didn't work directly for the Assassins (te database entry and Connor's letter).[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 05:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)		:::::::Thanks for the source, Liberation database never said if he founded it. And I just made a reflection, that technically Gerald Blanc is the de facto leader of the Louisiana Brotherhood in the late 1770s as the Aveline DLC implied that Aveline didn't work directly for the Assassins (te database entry and Connor's letter).[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 05:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

			::::::::I'd keep them separate, tbh. While these were closer, in the same soon-to-be nation by that time, they had different jurisdictions, different Mentors, not to mention their respective origins are also different. One started with John de la Tour under the French Council's orders and the other probably has its roots emerging thanks to the West Indies Brotherhood.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Francesco75: /* Revisit? */

2024-07-13T05:40:57Z

Revisit?

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	::::::Per the Essential Guide: "Agaté (c.1722-1777) The founder and Mentor of the Louisiana Brotherhoood, [...]" - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 03:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)		::::::Per the Essential Guide: "Agaté (c.1722-1777) The founder and Mentor of the Louisiana Brotherhoood, [...]" - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 03:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

			:::::::Thanks for the source, Liberation database never said if he founded it. And I just made a reflection, that technically Gerald Blanc is the de facto leader of the Louisiana Brotherhood in the late 1770s as the Aveline DLC implied that Aveline didn't work directly for the Assassins (te database entry and Connor's letter).[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 05:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Soranin: /* Revisit? */

2024-07-13T03:23:18Z

Revisit?

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	:::::Ok. For Agaté are we sure he created the Louisiana Brotherhood and not just arrived and became the Mentor? (my head cannon is that [[Coyote Man]] killed the former Louisiana Mentor and Agaté arrived). I think the title of Achilles' letter refered to John as the First Colonial Assassin, he repeated this in AC3 (the first Assassin in the Colonies but they were other before him). Also Achilles said that John attempting to build a network, so we don't know if it was operational. Also in the Canadian Brotherhood, we must add [[Margaux]] as she go in New France.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 22:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		:::::Ok. For Agaté are we sure he created the Louisiana Brotherhood and not just arrived and became the Mentor? (my head cannon is that [[Coyote Man]] killed the former Louisiana Mentor and Agaté arrived). I think the title of Achilles' letter refered to John as the First Colonial Assassin, he repeated this in AC3 (the first Assassin in the Colonies but they were other before him). Also Achilles said that John attempting to build a network, so we don't know if it was operational. Also in the Canadian Brotherhood, we must add [[Margaux]] as she go in New France.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 22:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

			::::::Per the Essential Guide: "Agaté (c.1722-1777) The founder and Mentor of the Louisiana Brotherhoood, [...]" - [[User:Soranin\|Soranin]] ([[User talk:Soranin\|talk]]) 03:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Francesco75: /* Revisit? */

2024-07-12T22:21:51Z

Revisit?

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:21, 13 July 2024
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	::::Achilles' letters mention that John de la Tour, an Assassin working under the orders of the French Assassin Council, had been building a network from Acadia. So it seems that at the time of Achilles' arrival, Assassin operations in New France were being conducted by the French Brotherhood, who may also have intended to spawn a separate branch. But Achilles is the "first Colonial Assassin". I don't know if the French Brotherhood were still involved in New France by the time of the Seven Years' War, but it is plausible that Achilles' Colonial Brotherhood took over all Assassin operations in both British America and New France and that likewise it spanned all of British America (Canada and the British West Indies included) under Connor. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 21:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		::::Achilles' letters mention that John de la Tour, an Assassin working under the orders of the French Assassin Council, had been building a network from Acadia. So it seems that at the time of Achilles' arrival, Assassin operations in New France were being conducted by the French Brotherhood, who may also have intended to spawn a separate branch. But Achilles is the "first Colonial Assassin". I don't know if the French Brotherhood were still involved in New France by the time of the Seven Years' War, but it is plausible that Achilles' Colonial Brotherhood took over all Assassin operations in both British America and New France and that likewise it spanned all of British America (Canada and the British West Indies included) under Connor. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 21:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

			:::::Ok. For Agaté are we sure he created the Louisiana Brotherhood and not just arrived and became the Mentor? (my head cannon is that [[Coyote Man]] killed the former Louisiana Mentor and Agaté arrived). I think the title of Achilles' letter refered to John as the First Colonial Assassin, he repeated this in AC3 (the first Assassin in the Colonies but they were other before him). Also Achilles said that John attempting to build a network, so we don't know if it was operational. Also in the Canadian Brotherhood, we must add [[Margaux]] as she go in New France.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 22:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Revisit? */

2024-07-12T21:54:27Z

Revisit?

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	:::But the question is how we proceed. Ok for the American Brotherhood page to exist, we write all the activities of its members and activities on the American sole, so [[Miguel Ramón Carlo de Lugo]], [[Thomas Stoddard]] and [[Jennifer Querry]] included. We also write the Louisiana actions. But the question is do we create a colonial Brotherhood page if we keep a Louisiana page? For me, the two Brotherhood could be considered as the predecessor of the American Brotherhood, so it is a bit strange to have a specific page for Louisiana and not the Colonial. For the limit of the Colonial Brotherhood, it will be 1783 (end of the Revolutionary War) or 1803 (Louisiana Purchase).[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 21:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		:::But the question is how we proceed. Ok for the American Brotherhood page to exist, we write all the activities of its members and activities on the American sole, so [[Miguel Ramón Carlo de Lugo]], [[Thomas Stoddard]] and [[Jennifer Querry]] included. We also write the Louisiana actions. But the question is do we create a colonial Brotherhood page if we keep a Louisiana page? For me, the two Brotherhood could be considered as the predecessor of the American Brotherhood, so it is a bit strange to have a specific page for Louisiana and not the Colonial. For the limit of the Colonial Brotherhood, it will be 1783 (end of the Revolutionary War) or 1803 (Louisiana Purchase).[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 21:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
			::::The page for the Louisiana Brotherhood should definitely be kept because ''The Essential Guide'' presents it as very distinct from the Colonial Brotherhood. After all, the Colonial Brotherhood was founded by Achilles, who was trained by the West Indies Brotherhood, while the Louisiana Brotherhood was founded by Agaté, who came from the Saint-Domingue Brotherhood. But you have a point that perhaps we can think of the Louisiana Brotherhood as merging into (or subsumed into) the American Brotherhood, where we can organize the pages as how we will for the Chinese Brotherhood (with Hidden Ones of the Great Desert and Hidden Ones of the Great Tang as separate pages alongside it). I think we need to hear more input from others.

			::::Regarding the image from the film though, it tells us that American Assassins operated in Louisiana by the time of the Civil War, from which we can infer that the Louisiana Brotherhood had merged into the American Brotherhood by then, but it doesn't seem to tell us anything explicit otherwise.

			::::Achilles' letters mention that John de la Tour, an Assassin working under the orders of the French Assassin Council, had been building a network from Acadia. So it seems that at the time of Achilles' arrival, Assassin operations in New France were being conducted by the French Brotherhood, who may also have intended to spawn a separate branch. But Achilles is the "first Colonial Assassin". I don't know if the French Brotherhood were still involved in New France by the time of the Seven Years' War, but it is plausible that Achilles' Colonial Brotherhood took over all Assassin operations in both British America and New France and that likewise it spanned all of British America (Canada and the British West Indies included) under Connor. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 21:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Francesco75: /* Revisit? */

2024-07-12T21:30:45Z

Revisit?

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	::Finally, we often think of the "Thirteen Colonies" as distinct from Canada and the Caribbean, but they were all formally known together as {{wiki\|British America}}. We might wish to bear in mind that the concept of the "Thirteen Colonies" is a retrospective one in that it referred to the 13 out of several dozens more that chose to rebel and then became the United States. Of course, there were cultural differences, and the colonies in Canada had been annexed from the French, but at the time of the revolution, these were all formally part of one territory to the British government. Still, I believe the War Letters in ''Rogue'' imply the Colonial Brotherhood founded by Achilles did not cover New France (Canada), at least not initially. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		::Finally, we often think of the "Thirteen Colonies" as distinct from Canada and the Caribbean, but they were all formally known together as {{wiki\|British America}}. We might wish to bear in mind that the concept of the "Thirteen Colonies" is a retrospective one in that it referred to the 13 out of several dozens more that chose to rebel and then became the United States. Of course, there were cultural differences, and the colonies in Canada had been annexed from the French, but at the time of the revolution, these were all formally part of one territory to the British government. Still, I believe the War Letters in ''Rogue'' imply the Colonial Brotherhood founded by Achilles did not cover New France (Canada), at least not initially. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

			:::For Louisiana, in the movie, there are pictures of Assassins from the Civil War (you can see them in the gallery of the Louisiana Brotherhood), but it is unknown if they are autonomous or not.

			:::For Desmond's cell, I already created years ago [[William Miles' team]]. William was the leader and the goal was to infiltrate the Animus Project. Saving Desmond and preventing the disaster was an evolution.

			:::For the jurisdiction of Achilles Brotherhood, they had a Gang headquarters in Halifax (British Canada) but they also planned Assassin missions that Shay prevented in New France. Maybe the Colonial Brotherhood is meant as the British/French Colonial Brotherhood as the borders were moving. Achilles' Brotherhood had influence from Canada to Virginia (Two Bends bureau) while Connor's was further south (Georgia) and even the Carribean Sea with the privateer's missions.

			:::But the question is how we proceed. Ok for the American Brotherhood page to exist, we write all the activities of its members and activities on the American sole, so [[Miguel Ramón Carlo de Lugo]], [[Thomas Stoddard]] and [[Jennifer Querry]] included. We also write the Louisiana actions. But the question is do we create a colonial Brotherhood page if we keep a Louisiana page? For me, the two Brotherhood could be considered as the predecessor of the American Brotherhood, so it is a bit strange to have a specific page for Louisiana and not the Colonial. For the limit of the Colonial Brotherhood, it will be 1783 (end of the Revolutionary War) or 1803 (Louisiana Purchase).[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 21:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Revisit? */

2024-07-12T19:39:10Z

Revisit?

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	::Hey Francesco, when does the movie imply that the Louisiana Brotherhood was still autonomous during the Civil War? I don't remember that at all.		::Hey Francesco, when does the movie imply that the Louisiana Brotherhood was still autonomous during the Civil War? I don't remember that at all.

	::I personally always thought of the American Brotherhood as a name change of the Colonial Brotherhood and so for our purposes the two can be the same page. However, I think it is also valid to treat them separately like {{wiki\|Thirteen Colonies}} and {{wiki\|United States of America}}. The question falls more on our preferred way of organizing the content. One key way to figure out the best approach may be to check for sources confirming that Connor was leader during the transition from the Colonial Brotherhood to the American Brotherhood because then there could be content overlap. It's even possible the Colonial Brotherhood was re-christened the American Brotherhood ''during'' the revolution for all we know since ''Assassin's Creed III'' never gives us the name of the branch. Unfortunately, I cannot find the name American Brotherhood in either editions of ''The Essential Guide''. Do we recall the source for this name?		::I personally always thought of the American Brotherhood as a simple name change from the Colonial Brotherhood and so for our purposes the two can be the same page. However, I think it is also valid to treat them separately like {{wiki\|Thirteen Colonies}} and {{wiki\|United States of America}}. The question falls more on our preferred way of organizing the content. One key way to figure out the best approach may be to check for sources confirming that Connor was leader during the transition from the Colonial Brotherhood to the American Brotherhood because then there could be content overlap. It's even possible the Colonial Brotherhood was re-christened the American Brotherhood ''during'' the revolution for all we know since ''Assassin's Creed III'' never gives us the name of the branch. Unfortunately, I cannot find the name American Brotherhood in either editions of ''The Essential Guide''. Do we recall the source for this name?

	::Regarding cells, although Galina's cell ''is'' called the Russian Brotherhood and the Onmoraki-Gumi the Osaka Brotherhood in ''The Essential Guide'', you are right that Desmond Miles' cell was more mobile and did not correspond neatly to any branch. The other two cells can be thought of as remnants of the purge, but Desmond's cell in my opinion was formed specifically for the purpose of rescuing Desmond. I have long argued that his cell needs its own page at least and so does Charlotte de la Cruz's. We don't have to include them under the American Brotherhood.		::Regarding cells, although Galina's cell ''is'' called the Russian Brotherhood and the Onmoraki-Gumi the Osaka Brotherhood in ''The Essential Guide'', you are right that Desmond Miles' cell was more mobile and did not correspond neatly to any branch. The other two cells can be thought of as remnants of the purge, but Desmond's cell in my opinion was formed specifically for the purpose of rescuing Desmond. I have long argued that his cell needs its own page at least and so does Charlotte de la Cruz's. We don't have to include them under the American Brotherhood.

	::You also brought up the Canadian Brotherhood in the "Persian Brotherhood" talk page. Per our consensus, I think it can discuss historical Assassin and Templar activities within the territory that would constitute. Bear in mind also that both Connor and Shay actively had agents conduct missions in Canada as well~~. Finally, we often think of the "Thirteen Colonies" as distinct from Canada and the Caribbean, but they were all formally known together as {{wiki\|British America}}~~.		::You also brought up the Canadian Brotherhood in the "Persian Brotherhood" talk page. Per our consensus, I think it can discuss historical Assassin and Templar activities within the territory that would constitute Canada. Bear in mind also that both Connor and Shay actively had agents conduct missions in Canada as well.

	::We might ~~also~~ wish to bear in mind that the concept of the "Thirteen Colonies" is a retrospective one in that it referred to the 13 out of several dozens more that chose to rebel and then became the United States. Of course, there were cultural differences, and the colonies in Canada had been annexed from the French, but at the time of the revolution, these were all formally part of one territory to the British government. Still, I believe the War Letters in ''Rogue'' imply the Colonial Brotherhood founded by Achilles did not cover New France (Canada), at least not initially. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)		::Finally, we often think of the "Thirteen Colonies" as distinct from Canada and the Caribbean, but they were all formally known together as {{wiki\|British America}}. We might wish to bear in mind that the concept of the "Thirteen Colonies" is a retrospective one in that it referred to the 13 out of several dozens more that chose to rebel and then became the United States. Of course, there were cultural differences, and the colonies in Canada had been annexed from the French, but at the time of the revolution, these were all formally part of one territory to the British government. Still, I believe the War Letters in ''Rogue'' imply the Colonial Brotherhood founded by Achilles did not cover New France (Canada), at least not initially. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

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	::::Also, I actually do think that Desmond's team really should have its own article. I think it's presumptuous to have it fall under American Brotherhood. This is similar to Master Sima Yi's proposal, only that I'm not too sure about splitting off Colonial vs. American Brotherhood exactly, but at least to split off Desmond's team. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:29, July 18, 2017 (UTC)		::::Also, I actually do think that Desmond's team really should have its own article. I think it's presumptuous to have it fall under American Brotherhood. This is similar to Master Sima Yi's proposal, only that I'm not too sure about splitting off Colonial vs. American Brotherhood exactly, but at least to split off Desmond's team. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:29, July 18, 2017 (UTC)
	:::::I'm not at all objecting to Desmond's and Charlotte's teams having their own articles, I just wish to organize it in such a way that we're consistent. I suppose we could make exceptions for their teams on the basis that they're both international cells that are no longer (or were never) limited to any specific city or state. Local cells can still be listed within their specific Brotherhood pages. [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 01:16, July 19, 2017 (UTC)		:::::I'm not at all objecting to Desmond's and Charlotte's teams having their own articles, I just wish to organize it in such a way that we're consistent. I suppose we could make exceptions for their teams on the basis that they're both international cells that are no longer (or were never) limited to any specific city or state. Local cells can still be listed within their specific Brotherhood pages. [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 01:16, July 19, 2017 (UTC)
	::::::For the point about it not being Californian anymore because it's no longer based in California, as I said earlier, I think it makes more sense to think of the geographical designation as being defined by where they originated in or operated from. From there, they take their name, and even if the name is no longer accurate, if it's the best lead on the group's name or was their name at some point, then it is fine as a conjectural title for their article. Aside from that, it's entirely possible for a group to maintain a name that's no longer geographically accurate. Take the Byzantine Empire, for example, which for its entire existence was still officially the Roman Empire because even if it's clear that they've become hella Hellenized and have long been sundered from Rome, they maintained their claim to their origins and their official name. Over at Wookieepedia, it is understood that conjectural names, while ideally accurate, can technically be pretty much anything. For example [[w:c:starwars:Justice Jedi\|Justice Jedi]] for this dude who we only know of as a guy who screamed "Justice" before dying... Nevermind! Someone renamed it without a discussion, but for many, many years, I remember admins affirmed it was fine as a conjectural name. In any case, you don't think "Californian Assassin cell" changes anything? That format isn't exactly correct if they meant it as purely descriptive. It would literally be the closest thing we have to a canonical name for the cell even if they're no longer in California. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:27, July 18, 2017 (UTC)		::::::For the point about it not being Californian anymore because it's no longer based in California, as I said earlier, I think it makes more sense to think of the geographical designation as being defined by where they originated in or operated from. From there, they take their name, and even if the name is no longer accurate, if it's the best lead on the group's name or was their name at some point, then it is fine as a conjectural title for their article. Aside from that, it's entirely possible for a group to maintain a name that's no longer geographically accurate. Take the Byzantine Empire, for example, which for its entire existence was still officially the Roman Empire because even if it's clear that they've become hella Hellenized and have long been sundered from Rome, they maintained their claim to their origins and their official name. Over at Wookieepedia, it is understood that conjectural names, while ideally accurate, can technically be pretty much anything. For example [w:c:starwars:Justice Jedi\|Justice Jedi] for this dude who we only know of as a guy who screamed "Justice" before dying... Nevermind! Someone renamed it without a discussion, but for many, many years, I remember admins affirmed it was fine as a conjectural name. In any case, you don't think "Californian Assassin cell" changes anything? That format isn't exactly correct if they meant it as purely descriptive. It would literally be the closest thing we have to a canonical name for the cell even if they're no longer in California. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:27, July 18, 2017 (UTC)
	:::::::I don't think the Byzantine Empire is a good example, given that the name is being applied retroactively. As for the cell, while it's true that we can technically name it whatever we like. I still think that, if we are aiming for the utmost accurate name, calling them "Charlotte de la Cruz's Assassin cell" is still more accurate than "Californian Assassin cell", given that they basically stopped being a local cell following Xavier's death. Not to mention the fact that it would fit the naming scheme of Desmond's team, assuming that we would call them "Desmond Miles' Assassin cell". [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 01:52, July 19, 2017 (UTC)		:::::::I don't think the Byzantine Empire is a good example, given that the name is being applied retroactively. As for the cell, while it's true that we can technically name it whatever we like. I still think that, if we are aiming for the utmost accurate name, calling them "Charlotte de la Cruz's Assassin cell" is still more accurate than "Californian Assassin cell", given that they basically stopped being a local cell following Xavier's death. Not to mention the fact that it would fit the naming scheme of Desmond's team, assuming that we would call them "Desmond Miles' Assassin cell". [[User:The Wikia Editor\|The Wikia Editor]] ([[User talk:The Wikia Editor\|talk]]) 01:52, July 19, 2017 (UTC)
	::::::::I think you should reread my example with the Byzantine Empire because the point is their usage of the name "Roman Empire" not the retroactive name "Byzantine Empire" (which would make absolutely no sense to my point). I kind of fear you're not addressing my counter-argument or Sima Yi's in fact, that being a cell originating in California doesn't mean they're limited to operating only in California or that names, being what they are, can reflect origins and aren't always necessarily changed just because they've moved. In any case, "California Assassin cell" is most accurate aside from my counter-argument above, by mere virtue that it's sourced (to the point it might not even be conjectural). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 00:07, July 19, 2017 (UTC)		::::::::I think you should reread my example with the Byzantine Empire because the point is their usage of the name "Roman Empire" not the retroactive name "Byzantine Empire" (which would make absolutely no sense to my point). I kind of fear you're not addressing my counter-argument or Sima Yi's in fact, that being a cell originating in California doesn't mean they're limited to operating only in California or that names, being what they are, can reflect origins and aren't always necessarily changed just because they've moved. In any case, "California Assassin cell" is most accurate aside from my counter-argument above, by mere virtue that it's sourced (to the point it might not even be conjectural). [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 00:07, July 19, 2017 (UTC)