Talk:Advisor of the Templar Order - Revision history

imported>Soranin at 14:07, 18 November 2024

2024-11-18T14:07:20Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:07, 18 November 2024
Line 31:		Line 31:
	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [Lieutenant of the Templar Order] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)		::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

imported>Soranin at 01:06, 17 November 2024

2024-11-17T01:06:15Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:06, 17 November 2024
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	{{~~Talkheader~~}}		{{ArchivedTalk}}
	==Delete proposal==		==Delete proposal==
	~~{{OpenTalk}}~~
	I do not think this page or its category warrant creation. "Advisor" is anyone who gives recommendations on future actions, I do not think it is a specific rank so much as a general and interchangeable position like "aide". As well, it is based almost entirely on Revolutionary-era French Templars, just like the Lieutenants page which I also feel questionable about. If both "positions" are one-offs for the Rite as well as something that no other Rite has ever had, as opposed to previously-established ranks like Master Templar, I do not see a need for either page. Meanwhile, Ellen Kaye's inclusion here is peculiar. The page lede says "Advisor is [a] subordinate rank", yet she apparently counts as one just for suggesting that Alan Rikkin take a different course of action, even though she outranks him and her "suggestion" would be more like an unspoken order. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 02:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)		I do not think this page or its category warrant creation. "Advisor" is anyone who gives recommendations on future actions, I do not think it is a specific rank so much as a general and interchangeable position like "aide". As well, it is based almost entirely on Revolutionary-era French Templars, just like the Lieutenants page which I also feel questionable about. If both "positions" are one-offs for the Rite as well as something that no other Rite has ever had, as opposed to previously-established ranks like Master Templar, I do not see a need for either page. Meanwhile, Ellen Kaye's inclusion here is peculiar. The page lede says "Advisor is [a] subordinate rank", yet she apparently counts as one just for suggesting that Alan Rikkin take a different course of action, even though she outranks him and her "suggestion" would be more like an unspoken order. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 02:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Agreed. This feels descriptive rather than prescriptive. God I hope I used that phrase right, otherwise I'm gunna feel really foolish. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)		:Agreed. This feels descriptive rather than prescriptive. God I hope I used that phrase right, otherwise I'm gunna feel really foolish. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /* Delete proposal */

2024-11-10T16:20:39Z

Delete proposal

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:20, 10 November 2024
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	:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.<u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)		::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /* Delete proposal */

2024-11-10T16:20:15Z

Delete proposal

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:20, 10 November 2024
Line 31:		Line 31:
	:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	<br/><br/>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br/> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br/>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br/> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br/> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br/> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.<u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
			::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Delete proposal */

2024-10-13T02:45:10Z

Delete proposal

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:45, 13 October 2024
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	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	<br/><br/>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br/> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br/>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br/> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br/> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br/> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		<br/><br/>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br/> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br/>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br/> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br/> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br/> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
			:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

imported>Cristophorus35: Reply sent.

2024-10-13T01:15:32Z

Reply sent.

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:15, 13 October 2024
Line 31:		Line 31:
	:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
			<br/><br/>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br/> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br/>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br/> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br/> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br/> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

imported>ACsenior at 14:27, 12 October 2024

2024-10-12T14:27:43Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:27, 12 October 2024
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	::::Frankly, I am also skeptical about the a "Templar Council" page as well. It is mentioned in ACU prologue as "the Council's message was absolute", so clearly it is ''something''...but that's all we know. Not its members, when it was founded, not even its duties. It could ''maybe'' be the Council of Elders, as that is the only Templar council we know of, but that is both retroactive and supposition. It might instead be unrelated to them and is an untraceable reference to a French judicial group during the persecution, like saying "the jury/court gave a restraining order", we don't know. As well, no one in ACSenior's current sandbox state is confirmed to be part of a proper noun-ed council, just a general council of people. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		::::Frankly, I am also skeptical about the a "Templar Council" page as well. It is mentioned in ACU prologue as "the Council's message was absolute", so clearly it is ''something''...but that's all we know. Not its members, when it was founded, not even its duties. It could ''maybe'' be the Council of Elders, as that is the only Templar council we know of, but that is both retroactive and supposition. It might instead be unrelated to them and is an untraceable reference to a French judicial group during the persecution, like saying "the jury/court gave a restraining order", we don't know. As well, no one in ACSenior's current sandbox state is confirmed to be part of a proper noun-ed council, just a general council of people. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
			To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

imported>ACsenior at 10:04, 12 October 2024

2024-10-12T10:04:14Z

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	:::Not at all, as far as I'm aware of debate practices, doing changes is among what's allowed as long as the debate is open. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 02:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::Not at all, as far as I'm aware of debate practices, doing changes is among what's allowed as long as the debate is open. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 02:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	::::Frankly, I am also skeptical about the a "Templar Council" page as well. It is mentioned in ACU prologue as "the Council's message was absolute", so clearly it is ''something''...but that's all we know. Not its members, when it was founded, not even its duties. It could ''maybe'' be the Council of Elders, as that is the only Templar council we know of, but that is both retroactive and supposition. It might instead be unrelated to them and is an untraceable reference to a French judicial group during the persecution, like saying "the jury/court gave a restraining order", we don't know. As well, no one in ACSenior's current sandbox state is confirmed to be part of a proper noun-ed council, just a general council of people. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		::::Frankly, I am also skeptical about the a "Templar Council" page as well. It is mentioned in ACU prologue as "the Council's message was absolute", so clearly it is ''something''...but that's all we know. Not its members, when it was founded, not even its duties. It could ''maybe'' be the Council of Elders, as that is the only Templar council we know of, but that is both retroactive and supposition. It might instead be unrelated to them and is an untraceable reference to a French judicial group during the persecution, like saying "the jury/court gave a restraining order", we don't know. As well, no one in ACSenior's current sandbox state is confirmed to be part of a proper noun-ed council, just a general council of people. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /* Delete proposal */

2024-10-12T04:25:43Z

Delete proposal

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:25, 12 October 2024
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	:Just the implications for using the history of something as an argument as cause and standard for deletion, I responded accordingly on the premise set.[[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 16:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)		:Just the implications for using the history of something as an argument as cause and standard for deletion, I responded accordingly on the premise set.[[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 16:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
	::Exhibits of Templar power like the Borgia towers/messengers are indeed once-and-done, never appearing after the Ezio games, but they were a gameplay feature in Brotherhood and were restricted to one era and one group, the Italian Templars in the Renaissance. The Council of Elders is from the film and its novel alone, but they establish they exist in the present. The matter at hand is whether the use of a few general nouns in a game and its novel with old French Templars should be proper nouns that apply to the entire Order. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 17:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)		::Exhibits of Templar power like the Borgia towers/messengers are indeed once-and-done, never appearing after the Ezio games, but they were a gameplay feature in Brotherhood and were restricted to one era and one group, the Italian Templars in the Renaissance. The Council of Elders is from the film and its novel alone, but they establish they exist in the present. The matter at hand is whether the use of a few general nouns in a game and its novel with old French Templars should be proper nouns that apply to the entire Order. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 17:15, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
	::And speaking of things existing is the existence of a "Templar Council" capitalised in both the novel and the De Molay memory~~, regardless~~ of the proper noun use of its individual advisors within these two councils in two separate eras and spoken of in the context of an Templar Rite rather than being a part of the governance of the entire Templar Order like the Council of Elders, whom still are described as being advisors. To say there is no advisory functions within the Templar Order on these grounds alone would be wrong. And if the multiplayer system is one ~~sett~~ up by modern Templars, then one could very much argue that they simply ~~sett~~ their own ranks within that system, as one would assume the Templars knew their own ranks. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 17:59, 11 October 2024 (UTC)		:::And speaking of things existing is the existence of a "Templar Council", capitalised in both the novel and the De Molay memory. Regardless of the proper noun use of its individual advisors, within these two councils in two separate eras and spoken of in the context of an Templar Rite rather than being a part of the governance of the entire Templar Order like the Council of Elders, whom still are described as being advisors. To say there is no advisory functions within the Templar Order on these grounds alone would be wrong. And if the multiplayer system is one set up by modern Templars, then one could very much argue that they simply set their own ranks within that system, as one would assume the Templars knew their own ranks. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 17:59, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::There is an argument to make a page for "Templar Council" like we have for [[Assassin Council]], but I do not think this page in its current form is warranted given the lack of solid sourcing. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 00:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::There is an argument to make a page for "Templar Council" like we have for [[Assassin Council]], but I do not think this page in its current form is warranted given the lack of solid sourcing. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 00:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	::::Then I am for the deletion, only on the condition a "Templar Council" page instead. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 01:09, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		::::Then I am for the deletion, only on the condition a "Templar Council" page instead. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 01:09, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
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	::My bad for jumping the gun with the suggestion. Do you have any specific input on this Jhonnies? Darman will probably chime in later and maybe Vetinari. I'll nudge Sol tomorrow was well. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		::My bad for jumping the gun with the suggestion. Do you have any specific input on this Jhonnies? Darman will probably chime in later and maybe Vetinari. I'll nudge Sol tomorrow was well. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::Not at all, as far as I'm aware of debate practices, doing changes is among what's allowed as long as the debate is open. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 02:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::Not at all, as far as I'm aware of debate practices, doing changes is among what's allowed as long as the debate is open. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 02:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::Frankly, I am also skeptical about the a "Templar Council" page as well. It is mentioned in ACU prologue as "the Council's message was absolute", so clearly it is ''something''...but that's all we know. Not its members, when it was founded, not even its duties. It could ''maybe'' be the Council of Elders, as that is the only Templar council we know of, but that is both retroactive and supposition. It might instead be unrelated to them and is an untraceable reference to a French judicial group during the persecution, like saying "the jury/court gave a restraining order", we don't know. As well, no one in ACSenior's current sandbox state is confirmed to be part of a proper noun-ed council, just a general council of people. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 04:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

imported>ACsenior at 02:54, 12 October 2024

2024-10-12T02:54:22Z

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	:Sure, I`ll still prepare for a move seeing as I'm already rewriting. And the consensus was to delate already prior to the suggested move, so unless that changes there are currently only two ways this ends. A new page or deletion. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 02:47, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:Sure, I`ll still prepare for a move seeing as I'm already rewriting. And the consensus was to delate already prior to the suggested move, so unless that changes there are currently only two ways this ends. A new page or deletion. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 02:47, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	::My bad for jumping the gun with the suggestion. Do you have any specific input on this Jhonnies? Darman will probably chime in later and maybe Vetinari. I'll nudge Sol tomorrow was well. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		::My bad for jumping the gun with the suggestion. Do you have any specific input on this Jhonnies? Darman will probably chime in later and maybe Vetinari. I'll nudge Sol tomorrow was well. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
			:::Not at all, as far as I'm aware of debate practices, doing changes is among what's allowed as long as the debate is open. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 02:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:07, 18 November 2024
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	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [Lieutenant of the Templar Order] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)		::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:20, 10 November 2024
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	:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.<u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)		::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:20, 10 November 2024
Line 31:		Line 31:
	:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	<br/><br/>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br/> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br/>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br/> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br/> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br/> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		<br><br>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.<u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
	:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
			::Given that there are is near-unanimous agreement with four votes in favor (myself, Vetinari, Lacrosse, and Soranin, the latter two of whom are also mods) and one vote (ACSenior) agreeing on the condition that a "Council" page be made despite that subject's own sources being dubious, can we proceed to deletion? – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:45, 13 October 2024
Line 32:		Line 32:
	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	<br/><br/>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br/> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br/>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br/> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br/> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br/> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)		<br/><br/>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br/> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br/>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br/> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br/> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br/> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
			:Actually the "Templar council" mentioned only once in the Unity novel is used to just mean "meeting" unlike how "Assassin Council" is used to mean a hierarchical body in the same novel. I would also point out that "gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters" are less positions and more roles or capacities which is why we don't have pages for them. Assassin Hunter is not even capitalized as that ever nor even consistently used that way. I would even go as far to say [[Lieutenant of the Templar Order]] is similarly more a descriptive role than an official rank. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 02:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:15, 13 October 2024
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	:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::It's one of two we know of, as Elise referred to it as such in the novel, having nothing related to any advisory function would be just as inaccurate. Especially given how much emphasis Unity and its novel gives on the French Templars themselves during both eras as having Templars with an advisory function, because as you've said, there's something. Aside from the Essential Guide description of the Elders. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 10:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
	To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)		To advance the discussion further, we know of Templars having positions such as gang leaders, bodyguards and even Assassin Hunters, but none of these are '''ranks''' and that is more so the issue highlighted here by everyone, than Templars themselves functioning as "advisor/adviser" and lieutenant as positions various Templars have documented history of being in. So instead of deleting or moving to a "Templar council" (stated by Elise, P309), I propose the removal of the rank category and any writing of it as rank, despite the "rank system" created by modern Templars in their own software, but instead write it as a Templar '''position''', not a rank. Because to deny it is a position itself would be dismissing both Unity and its novel as a source as a whole on it being exactly that, that wouldn't appear as even basic objective documentation of a bread position by this wiki itself and the implications for that would be so much worse for the documentation of anything that I shouldn't have to explain it. [[User:ACsenior\|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior\|talk]]) 14:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
			<br/><br/>I'd like to join the conversation. I'd read all the comments here and I have some things to say.<br/> I'd have to agree on the deletion of this page since it seems to describe "Advisor" as an official rank of the Templar hierarchy when in reality it isn't, not in the general view of it. Perhaps in a very specific hierarchy within a Rite, depending on the intentions of the team behind this fictional universe, but not as part of the main structure of the Templar Order. The essential guide doesn't mention it and, since it's not a recurrence, we shouldn't assume so. <br/>About the Advisor rank seen in Brotherhood's multiplayer, I also thought that reflected the Templars' structure by that day, but the lore went changing as the years passed and from that specific list, only the two first ranks (Grand Master and Master) survived. Perhaps because those are highlighted the most in the games, the latter particularly in Revelations' multiplayer videos. I wouldn't suggest to try and fit old lore unless we have certain support from the official material. Perhaps advisor was supposed to be part of the hierarchy at the beginning, but now it could be just a position within some Templar Rites; definitely not in the current general structure.<br/> About the Council page, we must be very careful with this, 'cause we might make official something that it isn't certain. The Templars have mentioned a "council" before, yes. I can think of four mentions, the ones already mentioned above (in Unity's prologue, in the movie, and in the Unity novel). But I'd like to mention one more: <u>a mention by Grand Master Torres in Black Flag.</u> According to him, it was a Council that tasked him with finding the Observatory; the thing I'm worried about is that we don't know if current lore confirms he was ''referring'' to the Council of Elders. I'd like to believe he was; in modern day, the Council of Elders, which is not part of Abstergo's Board of Directors nor part of its shareholders, seem to have authority in a global level. With such short of time between the mentions in Black Flag and Unity, I wonder if it's the same group they are talking about. If so, would it be the Council of Elders? We would need to confirm that before proceeding.<br/> Having re-read the Unity novel, I'd say the council Elise was speaking about would be the Templar equivalent of the Assassin one. She refers them to "Crows", and I don't know if that is an offensive word towards old people but definitely is a group that "preys" on the rest of Templars. His father suggest to her to stop treating them with such a behavior if she's supposed to be their Grand Master in the future. And this is when my questions start floating in my head. Is she really referring to a Council as in a group? Or is she referring to all the Templars in general? I'd argue the former since she mentions Templars, like those from a different family, apart from the "Crows" (not to mention that Crows is written with capital c). I'd dare to say that was the intention of the author in the novel, to tell us that the Templars also have a Council of sorts. We lack the connection between these and the Council of Elders and we don't know if it was a Council apart from the one of the Elders, so we should wait for confirmation before proceeding.<br/> I'd like to finish with an observation. I honestly didn't like the tone of your last message, sorry. As fellow editors on this wiki, we all recognize the importance of documenting key information from this saga. Saying things like "dismissing key information would undermine this wiki's credibility" isn't fair. Quite the contrary, in this conversation, several editors gave their reasoning and explained why this page isn't necessary. You have your worries, share them with the team. But don't undermine your collagues'. Let's make sure we all important data is accurately docummented.[[User:Cristophorus35\|Cristophorus35]] ([[User talk:Cristophorus35\|talk]]) 01:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)