Category talk:Greeks - Revision history

https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?action=history&feed=atom&title=Category_talk%3AGreeks Category talk:Greeks - Revision history 2026-06-14T10:33:19Z Revision history for this page on the wiki MediaWiki 1.42.3 https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936469&oldid=prev imported>Andrewh7 at 00:45, 22 June 2020 2020-06-22T00:45:35Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 02:45, 22 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l29">Line 29:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 29:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::We could categorized them as Hellens to distinct the Greek nationality and "Greek ethnicity" and culture. Greek for the nationality, so the individuals born in Greece after 1821, and Hellens for the individuals who are from Greek cultural society.[[User:Francesco75|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75|talk]]) 10:52, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::We could categorized them as Hellens to distinct the Greek nationality and "Greek ethnicity" and culture. Greek for the nationality, so the individuals born in Greece after 1821, and Hellens for the individuals who are from Greek cultural society.[[User:Francesco75|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75|talk]]) 10:52, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Yes, Greece was not unified by then and Greece was divided into city-states, but it is Greece / later became Greece and makes it easier for us to gather them into one category, so we know that they are Greek for those that have not played Odyssey and/or are new to the Assassin’s Creed game series. It may not be historically accurate, but we know the area as Greece even if they weren’t Greek at the time. [[User:Andrewh7|Andrewh7]] ([[User talk:Andrewh7|talk]]) 00:45, June 22, 2020 (UTC) Andrewh7</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">==Change category’s description?==</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I know that the current description for the category is only for those of Greek nationality, but what if it include those of Greek ethnicity too? This way it would limit the usually long length of the category list and make it easier to remember who lives in Greece / has Greek ethnicity and who doesn’t. It would also make the Ethnic Greek category list less long and lengthy. The way I picture it, it would only have those that both live in Greece and have Greek ethnicity, but those that are only of Greek descent and aren’t live in Greece such as Elpidios, Amunet and Khemu would go on the Ethnic Greeks category. 00:45, June 22, 2020 (UTC) Andrewh7</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Andrewh7 https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936468&oldid=prev imported>Francesco75: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-13T10:52:30Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:52, 13 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l27">Line 27:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 27:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Personally in my uneducated point of view I'd say Italy has been a nation multiple separate times but wouldn't necessarily say that a subject of the Kingdom of the Lombards shares the same nationality as a subject of the Republic of Italy but I'd also be forced to conclude by the same logic that a subject of the Republic of Italy possibly doesn't share their nationality with a subject of the Kingdom of Italy. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 10:30, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Personally in my uneducated point of view I'd say Italy has been a nation multiple separate times but wouldn't necessarily say that a subject of the Kingdom of the Lombards shares the same nationality as a subject of the Republic of Italy but I'd also be forced to conclude by the same logic that a subject of the Republic of Italy possibly doesn't share their nationality with a subject of the Kingdom of Italy. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 10:30, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::We could categorized them as Hellens to distinct the Greek nationality and "Greek ethnicity" and culture. Greek for the nationality, so the individuals born in Greece after 1821, and Hellens for the individuals who are from Greek cultural society.[[User:Francesco75|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75|talk]]) 10:52, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Francesco75 https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936467&oldid=prev imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-13T10:30:41Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:30, 13 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l22">Line 22:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 22:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Also, the number of characters that are people of the Macedonian Empire matter because if we have only one individual from the Macedonian Empire, then a category for individuals belonging to the Macedonian Empire is not really warranted. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:32, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Also, the number of characters that are people of the Macedonian Empire matter because if we have only one individual from the Macedonian Empire, then a category for individuals belonging to the Macedonian Empire is not really warranted. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:32, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:I want to avoid making categories based on what we believe constitutes the beginning of the nation-states because I think there's too much leeway in that distinction hence using regimes which have a better defined start and end date. You offered in your long response the Macedonian Empire as the beginning of Greek nationality but would that mean that we don't consider any Heroic Age Greeks to be Greek nationals or have any nationality at all?</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:Yes the number matters in a practical sense on whether a category page is warranted but I've only been using it in this discussion as a theoretical place holder for any regime which might have the requisite number of individuals for this to actually apply to. Which is why for discussion purposes I don't think the numbers matter. </ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:Personally in my uneducated point of view I'd say Italy has been a nation multiple separate times but wouldn't necessarily say that a subject of the Kingdom of the Lombards shares the same nationality as a subject of the Republic of Italy but I'd also be forced to conclude by the same logic that a subject of the Republic of Italy possibly doesn't share their nationality with a subject of the Kingdom of Italy. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 10:30, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Lacrossedeamon https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936466&oldid=prev imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-13T08:32:27Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 10:32, 13 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l19">Line 19:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 19:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::Hm, well this category, remember, is not about ethnicity, but if you think it can be confusing, for non-Greek subjects of the Macedonian Empire, we can just refrain from including them in this category and only in whatever ethnic category applies to them. But I think another question is... do we even have a substantial number of characters from the Macedonian Empire? Apart from this, I'm not sure how well you understood my long response above. I understand it's not really well-organized. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:18, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::Hm, well this category, remember, is not about ethnicity, but if you think it can be confusing, for non-Greek subjects of the Macedonian Empire, we can just refrain from including them in this category and only in whatever ethnic category applies to them. But I think another question is... do we even have a substantial number of characters from the Macedonian Empire? Apart from this, I'm not sure how well you understood my long response above. I understand it's not really well-organized. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:18, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::I know its not about ethnicity which is why I bring it up here. I think non-greek subjects of Macedon (which I don't think their numbers matter because I've just been using it as an example that could be applied to any multiethnic state) should still get a category for their "nationality" or whatever term we decide but I don't think "Greek" is really applicable for that. I'd go as far to argue that (and switching the examples up) someone from Ptolemaic Egypt and someone from Mamluk Egypt should not be considered the same nationality hence why I've proposed trying to delineate it down to ruling state but I realize that can also get messy (such as would all dynasties be their own category). From my understanding your long response was arguing that we shouldn't treat the category as actually describing the individuals nationality per se but more cultural identity. In response to that I'd say we don't really know what someone might have identified as. Did Ezio as a Florentine consider his "nationality" or "identity" to be the same as Barbarigo a Venetian? I worry this could be akin to misgendering. I think there is less wiggle room for misunderstanding and subjectivity if we can figure a way to get "subject of ______" to work. 07:58, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::I know its not about ethnicity which is why I bring it up here. I think non-greek subjects of Macedon (which I don't think their numbers matter because I've just been using it as an example that could be applied to any multiethnic state) should still get a category for their "nationality" or whatever term we decide but I don't think "Greek" is really applicable for that. I'd go as far to argue that (and switching the examples up) someone from Ptolemaic Egypt and someone from Mamluk Egypt should not be considered the same nationality hence why I've proposed trying to delineate it down to ruling state but I realize that can also get messy (such as would all dynasties be their own category). From my understanding your long response was arguing that we shouldn't treat the category as actually describing the individuals nationality per se but more cultural identity. In response to that I'd say we don't really know what someone might have identified as. Did Ezio as a Florentine consider his "nationality" or "identity" to be the same as Barbarigo a Venetian? I worry this could be akin to misgendering. I think there is less wiggle room for misunderstanding and subjectivity if we can figure a way to get "subject of ______" to work. 07:58, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I didn't catch at all that you meant to propose that we should instead have categories specific to a regime rather than a broad, general category for "nationality". I was wondering why you kept going back to the idea of having a page on people of the Macedonian Empire. Simultaneously, no, the point of my long response was not that the category page should "not be describing nationality per se, so much as cultural identity". Rather, I was making a case that the category should remain about nationality, but I wanted you to clarify what you think constitutes the beginning of the Italian and Greek nation-states. Because, especially if you are bringing it up that Ezio might not have identified himself as the same people as Venetians, then I think that implies you think Italy wasn't a nation until its unification in 1861. Am I correct?</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Also, the number of characters that are people of the Macedonian Empire matter because if we have only one individual from the Macedonian Empire, then a category for individuals belonging to the Macedonian Empire is not really warranted. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 08:32, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Sol Pacificus https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936465&oldid=prev imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-13T07:58:39Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 09:58, 13 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l18">Line 18:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 18:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::I feel that misses out on a bigger picture such as all the non Greeks that were still subjects of Macedon. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 06:10, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::I feel that misses out on a bigger picture such as all the non Greeks that were still subjects of Macedon. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 06:10, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::Hm, well this category, remember, is not about ethnicity, but if you think it can be confusing, for non-Greek subjects of the Macedonian Empire, we can just refrain from including them in this category and only in whatever ethnic category applies to them. But I think another question is... do we even have a substantial number of characters from the Macedonian Empire? Apart from this, I'm not sure how well you understood my long response above. I understand it's not really well-organized. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:18, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::Hm, well this category, remember, is not about ethnicity, but if you think it can be confusing, for non-Greek subjects of the Macedonian Empire, we can just refrain from including them in this category and only in whatever ethnic category applies to them. But I think another question is... do we even have a substantial number of characters from the Macedonian Empire? Apart from this, I'm not sure how well you understood my long response above. I understand it's not really well-organized. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:18, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::I know its not about ethnicity which is why I bring it up here. I think non-greek subjects of Macedon (which I don't think their numbers matter because I've just been using it as an example that could be applied to any multiethnic state) should still get a category for their "nationality" or whatever term we decide but I don't think "Greek" is really applicable for that. I'd go as far to argue that (and switching the examples up) someone from Ptolemaic Egypt and someone from Mamluk Egypt should not be considered the same nationality hence why I've proposed trying to delineate it down to ruling state but I realize that can also get messy (such as would all dynasties be their own category). From my understanding your long response was arguing that we shouldn't treat the category as actually describing the individuals nationality per se but more cultural identity. In response to that I'd say we don't really know what someone might have identified as. Did Ezio as a Florentine consider his "nationality" or "identity" to be the same as Barbarigo a Venetian? I worry this could be akin to misgendering. I think there is less wiggle room for misunderstanding and subjectivity if we can figure a way to get "subject of ______" to work. 07:58, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Lacrossedeamon https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936464&oldid=prev imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-13T06:18:14Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 08:18, 13 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l17">Line 17:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 17:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::My actual point is that I think just this category page, Greeks, can encompass people of the Macedonian Empire. I don't think we need a separate category for that. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:08, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::My actual point is that I think just this category page, Greeks, can encompass people of the Macedonian Empire. I don't think we need a separate category for that. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:08, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::I feel that misses out on a bigger picture such as all the non Greeks that were still subjects of Macedon. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 06:10, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::I feel that misses out on a bigger picture such as all the non Greeks that were still subjects of Macedon. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 06:10, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::::Hm, well this category, remember, is not about ethnicity, but if you think it can be confusing, for non-Greek subjects of the Macedonian Empire, we can just refrain from including them in this category and only in whatever ethnic category applies to them. But I think another question is... do we even have a substantial number of characters from the Macedonian Empire? Apart from this, I'm not sure how well you understood my long response above. I understand it's not really well-organized. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 06:18, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Sol Pacificus https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936463&oldid=prev imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-13T06:10:57Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 08:10, 13 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l16">Line 16:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 16:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::You bring up a good point about citizenship. While I'd argue its concept existed long before nationality I didn't take into account slave and non-citizen castes. I know conciseness/brevity is a point of contention with you but I'd also propose for example "Subject of Macedonian Empire" but I can see how even beyond wordiness that could have some issues. One, is a ruler of a monarchy still considered a subject and two terminology as Macedon wasn't always a empire. But I see this as an option to deconflict with your example about the Lombards. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 01:47, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::You bring up a good point about citizenship. While I'd argue its concept existed long before nationality I didn't take into account slave and non-citizen castes. I know conciseness/brevity is a point of contention with you but I'd also propose for example "Subject of Macedonian Empire" but I can see how even beyond wordiness that could have some issues. One, is a ruler of a monarchy still considered a subject and two terminology as Macedon wasn't always a empire. But I see this as an option to deconflict with your example about the Lombards. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 01:47, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::My actual point is that I think just this category page, Greeks, can encompass people of the Macedonian Empire. I don't think we need a separate category for that. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:08, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::My actual point is that I think just this category page, Greeks, can encompass people of the Macedonian Empire. I don't think we need a separate category for that. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:08, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::I feel that misses out on a bigger picture such as all the non Greeks that were still subjects of Macedon. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 06:10, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Lacrossedeamon https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936462&oldid=prev imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-13T02:08:28Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 04:08, 13 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l15">Line 15:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 15:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I really did not know how to organize my thoughts here or if everything I said here was necessary... xD [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:51, June 8, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I really did not know how to organize my thoughts here or if everything I said here was necessary... xD [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:51, June 8, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::You bring up a good point about citizenship. While I'd argue its concept existed long before nationality I didn't take into account slave and non-citizen castes. I know conciseness/brevity is a point of contention with you but I'd also propose for example "Subject of Macedonian Empire" but I can see how even beyond wordiness that could have some issues. One, is a ruler of a monarchy still considered a subject and two terminology as Macedon wasn't always a empire. But I see this as an option to deconflict with your example about the Lombards. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 01:47, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::You bring up a good point about citizenship. While I'd argue its concept existed long before nationality I didn't take into account slave and non-citizen castes. I know conciseness/brevity is a point of contention with you but I'd also propose for example "Subject of Macedonian Empire" but I can see how even beyond wordiness that could have some issues. One, is a ruler of a monarchy still considered a subject and two terminology as Macedon wasn't always a empire. But I see this as an option to deconflict with your example about the Lombards. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 01:47, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::My actual point is that I think just this category page, Greeks, can encompass people of the Macedonian Empire. I don't think we need a separate category for that. [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:08, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Sol Pacificus https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936461&oldid=prev imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-13T01:47:39Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 03:47, 13 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l14">Line 14:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 14:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Germany and Spain I can actually see the "nation-state" argument making sense since in medieval Europe, ideas about where one country began and where one ended was chaotic. Boundaries overlapped due to the feudal geopolitical make-up, so the consolidation of feudal territories into what eventually became Spain and Germany (as well as England and France) fit that mainstream narrative of the rise of nation-states by political scientists. But this goes back to my point; this was not the geopolitical development in other parts of the world, like China, Egypt, Persia, and Greece, and even in Italy, the story is not quite the same.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Germany and Spain I can actually see the "nation-state" argument making sense since in medieval Europe, ideas about where one country began and where one ended was chaotic. Boundaries overlapped due to the feudal geopolitical make-up, so the consolidation of feudal territories into what eventually became Spain and Germany (as well as England and France) fit that mainstream narrative of the rise of nation-states by political scientists. But this goes back to my point; this was not the geopolitical development in other parts of the world, like China, Egypt, Persia, and Greece, and even in Italy, the story is not quite the same.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I really did not know how to organize my thoughts here or if everything I said here was necessary... xD [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:51, June 8, 2020 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::I really did not know how to organize my thoughts here or if everything I said here was necessary... xD [[User:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:51, June 8, 2020 (UTC)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::You bring up a good point about citizenship. While I'd argue its concept existed long before nationality I didn't take into account slave and non-citizen castes. I know conciseness/brevity is a point of contention with you but I'd also propose for example "Subject of Macedonian Empire" but I can see how even beyond wordiness that could have some issues. One, is a ruler of a monarchy still considered a subject and two terminology as Macedon wasn't always a empire. But I see this as an option to deconflict with your example about the Lombards. [[User:Lacrossedeamon|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon|talk]]) 01:47, June 13, 2020 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

imported>Lacrossedeamon https://assassinscreedwiki.accesstheanimus.com/index.php?title=Category_talk:Greeks&diff=936460&oldid=prev imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Wrong category for Odyssey characters? */ 2020-06-08T23:53:46Z

<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Wrong category for Odyssey characters?</span></span></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en-GB"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 01:53, 9 June 2020</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l5">Line 5:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 5:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::The problem we're contending with is that mainstream political science tends to see terms like ''nationality'', ''sovereignty'', ''nation-state'', and probably even ''citizen'' as anachronistic for antiquity. Often, it is said that there were no such concept as sovereignty under the Peace of Westphalia which ended the Thirty Years' War and no concept such as nation-state ''in the entire world'' until European feudal kingdoms transitioned into consolidated states with clearly defined borders. I wholeheartedly disagree with this because I think this method of defining the nation, or the nation-state, or nationality is Eurocentric. It also tends to rest on flawed assumptions of every pre-modern country as being feudal, such as China, Iran, and Egypt. In any case, mainstream scholars hold that Ancient Egypt was never a nation or a nation-state, and the same goes for Ancient Rome or Greece and China prior to the 19th or 20th centuries. By this same reasoning, there were no such thing as a Greek nationality, an Egyptian nationality, or a Chinese nationality before the modern age. A minority of scholars do dispute that, in fact, Egypt and China qualified as nation-states from their inception, with the unification of Egypt under the Menes for example, but I have never met a professor who agrees with this or me.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::The problem we're contending with is that mainstream political science tends to see terms like ''nationality'', ''sovereignty'', ''nation-state'', and probably even ''citizen'' as anachronistic for antiquity. Often, it is said that there were no such concept as sovereignty under the Peace of Westphalia which ended the Thirty Years' War and no concept such as nation-state ''in the entire world'' until European feudal kingdoms transitioned into consolidated states with clearly defined borders. I wholeheartedly disagree with this because I think this method of defining the nation, or the nation-state, or nationality is Eurocentric. It also tends to rest on flawed assumptions of every pre-modern country as being feudal, such as China, Iran, and Egypt. In any case, mainstream scholars hold that Ancient Egypt was never a nation or a nation-state, and the same goes for Ancient Rome or Greece and China prior to the 19th or 20th centuries. By this same reasoning, there were no such thing as a Greek nationality, an Egyptian nationality, or a Chinese nationality before the modern age. A minority of scholars do dispute that, in fact, Egypt and China qualified as nation-states from their inception, with the unification of Egypt under the Menes for example, but I have never met a professor who agrees with this or me.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::In any case, I just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention. I personally have always thought that words are what we make them and terminology develops when there is a need for them, and if terms like ''nation-state'', ''nationality'', and ''nation'' have to be defined so narrowly as fitting the modern European model of the state, then we lack a word to describe how ancient Egyptians or ancient Chinese or ancient Greeks conceptualized their country apart from mere ethnicity. Because contrary to popular misconception, these three peoples did have a concept of having unified civilizations in those days, even if the unified country at times fell apart. These people also accepted that there were foreigners of other countries who became part of their countries.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::In any case, I just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention. I personally have always thought that words are what we make them and terminology develops when there is a need for them, and if terms like ''nation-state'', ''nationality'', and ''nation'' have to be defined so narrowly as fitting the modern European model of the state, then we lack a word to describe how ancient Egyptians or ancient Chinese or ancient Greeks conceptualized their country apart from mere ethnicity. Because contrary to popular misconception, these three peoples did have a concept of having unified civilizations in those days, even if the unified country at times fell apart. These people also accepted that there were foreigners of other countries who became part of their countries.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::A further problem is that ''nationality'' is sometimes or often treated as synonymous with ''citizenship'', and sometimes both these terms are seen as misleading if the state in question didn't technically have strict citizenship laws. Hence, I am also not sure if "Citizens of Macedonian Empire" would work. For one thing, I find it unnecessarily wordy and for another, I'm not sure how citizenship laws functioned in the Macedonian Empire. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">At the same time</del>, even if someone from an ancient state didn't have the codified rights in that state as a Roman citizen did, it doesn't mean that they didn't have some other official status, especially when censuses were involved. So perhaps ''citizen'' doesn't have to be defined so strictly.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::A further problem is that ''nationality'' is sometimes or often treated as synonymous with ''citizenship'', and sometimes both these terms are seen as misleading if the state in question didn't technically have strict citizenship laws. Hence, I am also not sure if "Citizens of Macedonian Empire" would work. For one thing, I find it unnecessarily wordy and for another, I'm not sure how citizenship laws functioned in the Macedonian Empire. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Then again</ins>, even if someone from an ancient state didn't have the codified rights in that state as a Roman citizen did, it doesn't mean that they didn't have some other official status, especially when censuses were involved. So perhaps ''citizen'' doesn't have to be defined so strictly.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Yet here's another thing. I have recently discovered that ''national'' and ''citizen'' are not always interchangeable because I only just learned last week that even though I am not a ''British citizen'' (I cannot live and vote in the UK), I am legally a ''British national'' via having been born in Hong Kong during British rule (which comes with a few privileges non-British nationals do not have). In a similar vein, American Samoans are legally US nationals but not US citizens while all US citizens are US nationals. In other words, ''national'' is broader and more general than ''citizen'', and I would prefer it as the safer option.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Yet here's another thing. I have recently discovered that ''national'' and ''citizen'' are not always interchangeable because I only just learned last week that even though I am not a ''British citizen'' (I cannot live and vote in the UK), I am legally a ''British national'' via having been born in Hong Kong during British rule (which comes with a few privileges non-British nationals do not have). In a similar vein, American Samoans are legally US nationals but not US citizens while all US citizens are US nationals. In other words, ''national'' is broader and more general than ''citizen'', and I would prefer it as the safer option.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> </table>

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