Category talk:Assassin branches - Revision history

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-19T23:05:43Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:05, 20 October 2019
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	:::::::Well Bureaus are more the city sized administrative level, guilds represent an in between level of branches and bureaus while also being used to differentiate from allied groups like the thieves and mercenaries. I feel branches are the parent org, the highest administrative level; a guild is like a branch's colony, it can control a whole region or just as single city depending on how big it is; bureaus then fall under the larger guilds. Branches shouldn't have to adhere to political boundaries and branch, guild, or bureau could be the same size it just depends on how much authority they have. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 19:23, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		:::::::Well Bureaus are more the city sized administrative level, guilds represent an in between level of branches and bureaus while also being used to differentiate from allied groups like the thieves and mercenaries. I feel branches are the parent org, the highest administrative level; a guild is like a branch's colony, it can control a whole region or just as single city depending on how big it is; bureaus then fall under the larger guilds. Branches shouldn't have to adhere to political boundaries and branch, guild, or bureau could be the same size it just depends on how much authority they have. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 19:23, October 19, 2019 (UTC)
	::::::::The bureaus are kind of tricky as it seems they have different models, as in the West Indies where there is only four bureaus, with one ghost bureau with Opia, a bureau in Nassau with only the Travers brothers as members and leaders, Anto seemed to recruit the slaves he liberated as Assassins in Kinston and Rhona was the only one who had recruits with Assassin robes in Havana. Tulum also had many Assassins in training and maybe some travelled in many locations through Caribbean like Mary Read. And also the Branch of Saint-Domingue was created in 1732 by Mackandal but when Adéwalé was stranded on the island in 1735, no Assassin could help him to go or was sent to search him. It's not very clear how this system work.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 21:23, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		::::::::The bureaus are kind of tricky as it seems they have different models, as in the West Indies where there is only four bureaus, with one ghost bureau with Opia, a bureau in Nassau with only the Travers brothers as members and leaders, Anto seemed to recruit the slaves he liberated as Assassins in Kinston and Rhona was the only one who had recruits with Assassin robes in Havana. Tulum also had many Assassins in training and maybe some travelled in many locations through Caribbean like Mary Read. And also the Branch of Saint-Domingue was created in 1732 by Mackandal but when Adéwalé was stranded on the island in 1735, no Assassin could help him to go or was sent to search him. It's not very clear how this system work.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 21:23, October 19, 2019 (UTC)
			Bureaus aren't really an administrative level so much as the centres where administration and organization for missions take place. So within each guild or branch, there could be several bureaus which are just offices and hideouts for the Assassins. Sometimes, like during Altaïr's time, there could be multiple bureaus in one city or they may be more spread out. In Ezio's time, it looks like bureaus were renamed dens while the highest bureau in the city was the headquarters. According to ''The Essential Guide'', guilds are what branches were from the time of Altaïr's reorganization of the Brotherhood to sometime in the 20th century.

			Hence, the Italian Brotherhood at the time of the late 15th century was one guild comprising all the Assassins of the Italian city-states, including those based in Florence, Monteriggioni, Venice, and Rome. Presumably, the French guild, called the French Brotherhood comprised the Assassins of all the cities of France. Sometimes, however, guilds were alternatively named after their "capital" (e.g. the French Brotherhood was also named the Parisian Brotherhood, the Chinese Brotherhood was called the Beijing Brotherhood during the Ming dynasty, and the Japanese Brotherhood was also called the Osaka Brotherhood in the 21st century). Another issue though is that it's unclear if guilds were always coextensive with national boundaries. For example, I always had my suspicions that during the Spanish Inquisition, the so-called "Spanish Brotherhood" wasn't organized to the same borders as Spain, especially since the Christian Kingdoms of Iberia were just beginning to unify at the time. I have thought that the Assassins based in the Kingdom of Aragon were probably a different branch/guild altogether from Aguilar's Assassins based in Seville. I can even imagine that the Assassins in the 21st century might find operating in a large country like the United States would be more efficient if they divided their operations in the country into multiple branches. Assassins in California, Oregon, and Washington would have an easier time working with Assassins in British Columbia, Canada than with Assassins in New York and Massachusetts.

			Cells are just branches which have devolved (or reorganized) into a single or multiple scattered cells. The Farm was probably what you would call one cell within the American Brotherhood but that is just my speculation. "Branch", however, has never been used as the name of an administrative division. It is just a general, descriptive word for, well, regional branches of the Assassin Brotherhood. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 23:05, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Francesco75: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-19T21:23:38Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:23, 19 October 2019
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	* A guild is at the level of a city, Rome, Paris, Calicut but with some exceptions like the Parisian Brotherhood. Why not the French Branch?		* A guild is at the level of a city, Rome, Paris, Calicut but with some exceptions like the Parisian Brotherhood. Why not the French Branch?
	*Cell is the modern word for guild but with the purge they are fewer Assassins, so small team.		*Cell is the modern word for guild but with the purge they are fewer Assassins, so small team.
	* For the Ancient Roman Assassins or Hidden Ones, Egypt became ~~Rome~~ in 30 BCE, so the ~~Egypt~~ became Roman? It's not clear.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 18:58, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		* For the Ancient Roman Assassins or Hidden Ones, Egypt became Roman in 30 BCE, so the Egyptian branch became Roman? It's not clear.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 18:58, October 19, 2019 (UTC)
	:::::::Well Bureaus are more the city sized administrative level, guilds represent an in between level of branches and bureaus while also being used to differentiate from allied groups like the thieves and mercenaries. I feel branches are the parent org, the highest administrative level; a guild is like a branch's colony, it can control a whole region or just as single city depending on how big it is; bureaus then fall under the larger guilds. Branches shouldn't have to adhere to political boundaries and branch, guild, or bureau could be the same size it just depends on how much authority they have. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 19:23, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		:::::::Well Bureaus are more the city sized administrative level, guilds represent an in between level of branches and bureaus while also being used to differentiate from allied groups like the thieves and mercenaries. I feel branches are the parent org, the highest administrative level; a guild is like a branch's colony, it can control a whole region or just as single city depending on how big it is; bureaus then fall under the larger guilds. Branches shouldn't have to adhere to political boundaries and branch, guild, or bureau could be the same size it just depends on how much authority they have. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 19:23, October 19, 2019 (UTC)
			::::::::The bureaus are kind of tricky as it seems they have different models, as in the West Indies where there is only four bureaus, with one ghost bureau with Opia, a bureau in Nassau with only the Travers brothers as members and leaders, Anto seemed to recruit the slaves he liberated as Assassins in Kinston and Rhona was the only one who had recruits with Assassin robes in Havana. Tulum also had many Assassins in training and maybe some travelled in many locations through Caribbean like Mary Read. And also the Branch of Saint-Domingue was created in 1732 by Mackandal but when Adéwalé was stranded on the island in 1735, no Assassin could help him to go or was sent to search him. It's not very clear how this system work.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 21:23, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-19T19:23:22Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:23, 19 October 2019
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	*Cell is the modern word for guild but with the purge they are fewer Assassins, so small team.		*Cell is the modern word for guild but with the purge they are fewer Assassins, so small team.
	* For the Ancient Roman Assassins or Hidden Ones, Egypt became Rome in 30 BCE, so the Egypt became Roman? It's not clear.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 18:58, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		* For the Ancient Roman Assassins or Hidden Ones, Egypt became Rome in 30 BCE, so the Egypt became Roman? It's not clear.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 18:58, October 19, 2019 (UTC)
			:::::::Well Bureaus are more the city sized administrative level, guilds represent an in between level of branches and bureaus while also being used to differentiate from allied groups like the thieves and mercenaries. I feel branches are the parent org, the highest administrative level; a guild is like a branch's colony, it can control a whole region or just as single city depending on how big it is; bureaus then fall under the larger guilds. Branches shouldn't have to adhere to political boundaries and branch, guild, or bureau could be the same size it just depends on how much authority they have. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 19:23, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Francesco75: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-19T18:58:41Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:58, 19 October 2019
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	::::We should just create our own organizational structure and send it to Ubisoft. Like the Hidden Ones is a branch; within it it has at least an Egypt guild and Roman guild; under the Egyptian guild there are bureaus in Memphis, Sinai, and possibly Alexandria and else where. At some point the guild in Rome turned into its own branch, the Liberalis Circulum, which had its own Roman, Gaulish, and Iberian guilds. The Assassins would then be another branch with a guild in Alamut, another in Masyaf, and later Constantinople and Venice. A region could have guilds from different branches but those would usually join and become their branches. All this is headcanon of course but half tempted to put it on the wiki to trick Ubisoft into canonizing it. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 15:53, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		::::We should just create our own organizational structure and send it to Ubisoft. Like the Hidden Ones is a branch; within it it has at least an Egypt guild and Roman guild; under the Egyptian guild there are bureaus in Memphis, Sinai, and possibly Alexandria and else where. At some point the guild in Rome turned into its own branch, the Liberalis Circulum, which had its own Roman, Gaulish, and Iberian guilds. The Assassins would then be another branch with a guild in Alamut, another in Masyaf, and later Constantinople and Venice. A region could have guilds from different branches but those would usually join and become their branches. All this is headcanon of course but half tempted to put it on the wiki to trick Ubisoft into canonizing it. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 15:53, October 19, 2019 (UTC)
	:::::Devioussss. My friend, devioussss. In all seriousness, the phenomenon of accidentally canonizing lore through the wiki is fairly common, but on principle, wiki contributors usually should try to avoid doing that. Given the mess of the lore currently though... I can't help but wonder if an exception can be made. Even if not, we would have to write in a certain way in our attempts to reconcile the lore, and consequently, leaning in this direction may even be unavoidable. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:31, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		:::::Devioussss. My friend, devioussss. In all seriousness, the phenomenon of accidentally canonizing lore through the wiki is fairly common, but on principle, wiki contributors usually should try to avoid doing that. Given the mess of the lore currently though... I can't help but wonder if an exception can be made. Even if not, we would have to write in a certain way in our attempts to reconcile the lore, and consequently, leaning in this direction may even be unavoidable. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:31, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

			::::::For me, a branch is on a national or regional level, like the Italian of West Indies Assassins. But there are some questions, during the Renaissance, Italy was seperated in many city-states, did Ezio was the mentor of the Assassins in Papal States or for all italians city-states. What about Naples? It was controlled by the Spanish, so the Mentor from Spain was their leader? Did the Turkish Brotherhood had a predominence on the Greek, Levantine and Egypt branch as the Ottoman Empire conquered this territory. And the American Branch was a fusion of the Colonial and Louisiania branchs?
			* A guild is at the level of a city, Rome, Paris, Calicut but with some exceptions like the Parisian Brotherhood. Why not the French Branch?
			*Cell is the modern word for guild but with the purge they are fewer Assassins, so small team.
			* For the Ancient Roman Assassins or Hidden Ones, Egypt became Rome in 30 BCE, so the Egypt became Roman? It's not clear.[[User:Francesco75\|Francesco75]] ([[User talk:Francesco75\|talk]]) 18:58, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-19T18:31:30Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:31, 19 October 2019
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	:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	::::We should just create our own organizational structure and send it to Ubisoft. Like the Hidden Ones is a branch; within it it has at least an Egypt guild and Roman guild; under the Egyptian guild there are bureaus in Memphis, Sinai, and possibly Alexandria and else where. At some point the guild in Rome turned into its own branch, the Liberalis Circulum, which had its own Roman, Gaulish, and Iberian guilds. The Assassins would then be another branch with a guild in Alamut, another in Masyaf, and later Constantinople and Venice. A region could have guilds from different branches but those would usually join and become their branches. All this is headcanon of course but half tempted to put it on the wiki to trick Ubisoft into canonizing it. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 15:53, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		::::We should just create our own organizational structure and send it to Ubisoft. Like the Hidden Ones is a branch; within it it has at least an Egypt guild and Roman guild; under the Egyptian guild there are bureaus in Memphis, Sinai, and possibly Alexandria and else where. At some point the guild in Rome turned into its own branch, the Liberalis Circulum, which had its own Roman, Gaulish, and Iberian guilds. The Assassins would then be another branch with a guild in Alamut, another in Masyaf, and later Constantinople and Venice. A region could have guilds from different branches but those would usually join and become their branches. All this is headcanon of course but half tempted to put it on the wiki to trick Ubisoft into canonizing it. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 15:53, October 19, 2019 (UTC)
			:::::Devioussss. My friend, devioussss. In all seriousness, the phenomenon of accidentally canonizing lore through the wiki is fairly common, but on principle, wiki contributors usually should try to avoid doing that. Given the mess of the lore currently though... I can't help but wonder if an exception can be made. Even if not, we would have to write in a certain way in our attempts to reconcile the lore, and consequently, leaning in this direction may even be unavoidable. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:31, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-19T15:53:27Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:53, 19 October 2019
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	:::::Honestly, the main source for this is ''[[Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide\|The Essential Guide]]'' which also elucidated the concept and organization of guilds clearly for the first time. I know it's not the most authoritative source unfortunately. I also don't have access to the newest edition, so I don't know if it the information on Assassin branches has been updated. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::::Honestly, the main source for this is ''[[Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide\|The Essential Guide]]'' which also elucidated the concept and organization of guilds clearly for the first time. I know it's not the most authoritative source unfortunately. I also don't have access to the newest edition, so I don't know if it the information on Assassin branches has been updated. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			::::We should just create our own organizational structure and send it to Ubisoft. Like the Hidden Ones is a branch; within it it has at least an Egypt guild and Roman guild; under the Egyptian guild there are bureaus in Memphis, Sinai, and possibly Alexandria and else where. At some point the guild in Rome turned into its own branch, the Liberalis Circulum, which had its own Roman, Gaulish, and Iberian guilds. The Assassins would then be another branch with a guild in Alamut, another in Masyaf, and later Constantinople and Venice. A region could have guilds from different branches but those would usually join and become their branches. All this is headcanon of course but half tempted to put it on the wiki to trick Ubisoft into canonizing it. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 15:53, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-16T22:40:10Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:40, 17 October 2019
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	:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	::::Gotcha. Is there a good canon source to brush up on the distinction? Also I wish Ubisoft was better with its reference material and used them to truly help in wouldbuilding. Anyways it sounds like a lot of the Brotherhood pages need revamping then. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:33, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		::::Gotcha. Is there a good canon source to brush up on the distinction? Also I wish Ubisoft was better with its reference material and used them to truly help in wouldbuilding. Anyways it sounds like a lot of the Brotherhood pages need revamping then. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:33, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			:::::Honestly, the main source for this is ''[[Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide\|The Essential Guide]]'' which also elucidated the concept and organization of guilds clearly for the first time. I know it's not the most authoritative source unfortunately. I also don't have access to the newest edition, so I don't know if it the information on Assassin branches has been updated. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-16T22:33:47Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:33, 17 October 2019
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	::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			::::Gotcha. Is there a good canon source to brush up on the distinction? Also I wish Ubisoft was better with its reference material and used them to truly help in wouldbuilding. Anyways it sounds like a lot of the Brotherhood pages need revamping then. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:33, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-16T22:26:10Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:26, 17 October 2019
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	:As I had explained to Jasca before, not all Assassin branches are or were guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:36, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:As I had explained to Jasca before, not all Assassin branches are or were guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:36, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Not deprecated but redundant */

2019-10-16T22:19:00Z

Not deprecated but redundant

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:19, 17 October 2019
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	It looks like this category was replaced with the assassins guild category. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 20:02, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		It looks like this category was replaced with the assassins guild category. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 20:02, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	:As I had explained to Jasca before, not all Assassin branches are or were guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:36, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:As I had explained to Jasca before, not all Assassin branches are or were guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:36, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:31, 19 October 2019
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	:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	::::We should just create our own organizational structure and send it to Ubisoft. Like the Hidden Ones is a branch; within it it has at least an Egypt guild and Roman guild; under the Egyptian guild there are bureaus in Memphis, Sinai, and possibly Alexandria and else where. At some point the guild in Rome turned into its own branch, the Liberalis Circulum, which had its own Roman, Gaulish, and Iberian guilds. The Assassins would then be another branch with a guild in Alamut, another in Masyaf, and later Constantinople and Venice. A region could have guilds from different branches but those would usually join and become their branches. All this is headcanon of course but half tempted to put it on the wiki to trick Ubisoft into canonizing it. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 15:53, October 19, 2019 (UTC)		::::We should just create our own organizational structure and send it to Ubisoft. Like the Hidden Ones is a branch; within it it has at least an Egypt guild and Roman guild; under the Egyptian guild there are bureaus in Memphis, Sinai, and possibly Alexandria and else where. At some point the guild in Rome turned into its own branch, the Liberalis Circulum, which had its own Roman, Gaulish, and Iberian guilds. The Assassins would then be another branch with a guild in Alamut, another in Masyaf, and later Constantinople and Venice. A region could have guilds from different branches but those would usually join and become their branches. All this is headcanon of course but half tempted to put it on the wiki to trick Ubisoft into canonizing it. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 15:53, October 19, 2019 (UTC)
			:::::Devioussss. My friend, devioussss. In all seriousness, the phenomenon of accidentally canonizing lore through the wiki is fairly common, but on principle, wiki contributors usually should try to avoid doing that. Given the mess of the lore currently though... I can't help but wonder if an exception can be made. Even if not, we would have to write in a certain way in our attempts to reconcile the lore, and consequently, leaning in this direction may even be unavoidable. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 18:31, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:53, 19 October 2019
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	:::::Honestly, the main source for this is ''[[Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide\|The Essential Guide]]'' which also elucidated the concept and organization of guilds clearly for the first time. I know it's not the most authoritative source unfortunately. I also don't have access to the newest edition, so I don't know if it the information on Assassin branches has been updated. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::::Honestly, the main source for this is ''[[Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide\|The Essential Guide]]'' which also elucidated the concept and organization of guilds clearly for the first time. I know it's not the most authoritative source unfortunately. I also don't have access to the newest edition, so I don't know if it the information on Assassin branches has been updated. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			::::We should just create our own organizational structure and send it to Ubisoft. Like the Hidden Ones is a branch; within it it has at least an Egypt guild and Roman guild; under the Egyptian guild there are bureaus in Memphis, Sinai, and possibly Alexandria and else where. At some point the guild in Rome turned into its own branch, the Liberalis Circulum, which had its own Roman, Gaulish, and Iberian guilds. The Assassins would then be another branch with a guild in Alamut, another in Masyaf, and later Constantinople and Venice. A region could have guilds from different branches but those would usually join and become their branches. All this is headcanon of course but half tempted to put it on the wiki to trick Ubisoft into canonizing it. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 15:53, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:40, 17 October 2019
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	:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	::::Gotcha. Is there a good canon source to brush up on the distinction? Also I wish Ubisoft was better with its reference material and used them to truly help in wouldbuilding. Anyways it sounds like a lot of the Brotherhood pages need revamping then. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:33, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		::::Gotcha. Is there a good canon source to brush up on the distinction? Also I wish Ubisoft was better with its reference material and used them to truly help in wouldbuilding. Anyways it sounds like a lot of the Brotherhood pages need revamping then. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:33, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			:::::Honestly, the main source for this is ''[[Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide\|The Essential Guide]]'' which also elucidated the concept and organization of guilds clearly for the first time. I know it's not the most authoritative source unfortunately. I also don't have access to the newest edition, so I don't know if it the information on Assassin branches has been updated. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			:::Just to give an example: the Japanese Brotherhood of Assassins is a branch of the Assassins that was organized as a Guild during the Sengoku period but in the 21st century is a cell. Its article encompasses both its time as a guild and as a cell, not one or the other. An additional problem though is that it's not clear if under the cell system, a branch like the Japanese Brotherhood can contain multiple cells or if each cell is officially one branch. (There was an edit conflict with this comment) [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:33, 17 October 2019
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	::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			::::Gotcha. Is there a good canon source to brush up on the distinction? Also I wish Ubisoft was better with its reference material and used them to truly help in wouldbuilding. Anyways it sounds like a lot of the Brotherhood pages need revamping then. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:33, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:26, 17 October 2019
Line 5:		Line 5:
	:As I had explained to Jasca before, not all Assassin branches are or were guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:36, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		:As I had explained to Jasca before, not all Assassin branches are or were guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 20:36, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
	::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)		::Can you explain and cite the differences to me as well? We have a page for guilds and other for bureaus and cells but none for branches. That might need to be rectified. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 22:19, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
			:::"Branch" is just a descriptive, general term that covers guilds, cells, and Assassin branches that predate the guild system established by Altaïr ibn-La'Ahad. Now, due to retcons, I'm not entirely sure if there were still other other Assassin branches (like one in Egypt and one in Persia) prior to Altaïr's reforms. However, the guild system ceased to exist sometime after World War II or most definitely with the Great Purge. In the 21st century, all regional Assassin branches seem to operate with the cell system of organization, and some of our current articles on Assassin branches involve those we know to have been cells but have yet to canonically appear as guilds. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 22:26, October 16, 2019 (UTC)