Category talk:Assassin Brotherhood members - Revision history

imported>Soranin at 13:36, 17 January 2023

2023-01-17T13:36:45Z

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	{{~~Talkheader~~}}		{{ArchivedTalk}}
	==Deletion proposal==		==Deletion proposal==
	I noticed that Darman put up a deletion proposal for this category (though without opening up the discussion), and I firmly stand by it. His listed reason that Assassin Brotherhood is a not a gender-neutral term is actually aside from the point even though I also share the same reservations about the name for that reason. Category names should be as concise as possible and employ demonyms when possible.		I noticed that Darman put up a deletion proposal for this category (though without opening up the discussion), and I firmly stand by it. His listed reason that Assassin Brotherhood is a not a gender-neutral term is actually aside from the point even though I also share the same reservations about the name for that reason. Category names should be as concise as possible and employ demonyms when possible.

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-21T04:01:12Z

Deletion proposal

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:01, 21 June 2021
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	::::::I wasn't aware that ''demonym'' specifically can only refer to the noun referring to a group of people ''in relation to a place''. I always assumed from the roots that by extension, it can also refer to the word used for a group of people in relation to organizations. I guess I'm probably mistaken there although then I don't know what you would call the name used for people in relation to their organization. In any case, that would result in arguing semantics. Regardless of the proper term for it, I am still referring to the name used for a member of an organization. Group affiliation is meant to fall under that same naming standard and did before Jasca abused his bot.		::::::I wasn't aware that ''demonym'' specifically can only refer to the noun referring to a group of people ''in relation to a place''. I always assumed from the roots that by extension, it can also refer to the word used for a group of people in relation to organizations. I guess I'm probably mistaken there although then I don't know what you would call the name used for people in relation to their organization. In any case, that would result in arguing semantics. Regardless of the proper term for it, I am still referring to the name used for a member of an organization. Group affiliation is meant to fall under that same naming standard and did before Jasca abused his bot.

	::::::Your perspective about how it might be more IU to include people like "John Wilkes Booth" under "assassins" does make a bit more sense to me, or at least I can see where you're coming from more. But I think that there is also the question of primacy even within the ''Assassin's Creed'' world. In that world, there is still a lexical distinction between Assassins, as in a member of that organization, and assassins in general, and we would still be faced with a choice between using that category name for Assassins or assassins. Nor would it necessarily follow that we ''have'' to have a category for the latter if it is not useful or convenient. Yes, John Wilkes Booth was an assassin, just as he was in real-life, but we ~~do not~~ have to have a category accounting for that fact.		::::::Your perspective about how it might be more IU to include people like "John Wilkes Booth" under "assassins" does make a bit more sense to me, or at least I can see where you're coming from more. But I think that there would also be the question of primacy even within the ''Assassin's Creed'' world. In that world, there would still be a lexical distinction between Assassins, as in a member of that organization, and assassins in general, and we would still be faced with a choice between using that category name for Assassins or assassins. Nor would it necessarily follow that we ''have'' to have a category for the latter if it is not useful or convenient. Yes, John Wilkes Booth was an assassin, just as he was in real-life, but nothing says we would have to have a category accounting for that fact or that that would be the best way to categorize him.

	::::::Even situated within that world, for people who are aware of the full breadth of humanity's history and the conflict between the Assassins and Templars, I would think Assassins would still be the primary topic for the term ''(A/a)ssassins'' where a distinction cannot be made—even more-so because they would constitute the true history of the world and arguably also its "true" meaning. In this ~~world~~, it might even make more sense to categorize Booth under "Templar agents", "Templar sleeper agents", or "Templar puppets" ''without'' a generalized ''assassin'' category that would not be useful in a world of Assassins. You might be thinking of it in terms of writing for still a generalized audience who may not have knowledge about the Assassins and Templars, but of course, if our wiki existed in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe, our direction would actually be informed by awareness of their existence and the prominence they play in "real-life" events.		::::::Even situated within that world, for people who are aware of the full breadth of humanity's history and the conflict between the Assassins and Templars, I would think Assassins would still be the primary topic for the term ''(A/a)ssassins'' where a distinction cannot be made—even more-so because they would constitute the true history of the world and arguably also its "true" meaning. In this universe, it might even make more sense to categorize Booth under "Templar agents", "Templar sleeper agents", or "Templar puppets" ''without'' an accompanying, generalized ''assassin'' category that would not be useful in a world full of Assassins. You might be thinking of it in terms of writing for still a generalized audience who may not have knowledge about the Assassins and Templars, but of course, if our wiki existed in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe, our direction would actually be informed by awareness of their existence and the prominence they play in "real-life" events.

	::::::If you are fine by thinking of an alternate name proposal, we can begin exploring that right away (probably in a different page). I also do not mind exploring how we codify the term ''assassination''. Though I am a bit wary we might end up imposing our own speculative interpretations, it could be worth a shot, might deepen our understanding of the lore, might be helpful for future issues of organization, and might even be fun. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::::::If you are fine by thinking of an alternate name proposal, we can begin exploring that right away (probably in a different page). I also do not mind exploring how we codify the term ''assassination''. Though I am a bit wary we might end up imposing our own speculative interpretations, it could be worth a shot, might deepen our understanding of the lore, might be helpful for future issues of organization, and might even be fun. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-21T03:57:35Z

Deletion proposal

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	::::::Even situated within that world, for people who are aware of the full breadth of humanity's history and the conflict between the Assassins and Templars, I would think Assassins would still be the primary topic for the term ''(A/a)ssassins'' where a distinction cannot be made—even more-so because they would constitute the true history of the world and arguably also its "true" meaning. In this world, it might even make more sense to categorize Booth under "Templar agents", "Templar sleeper agents", or "Templar puppets" ''without'' a generalized ''assassin'' category that would not be useful in a world of Assassins. You might be thinking of it in terms of writing for still a generalized audience who may not have knowledge about the Assassins and Templars, but of course, if our wiki existed in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe, our direction would actually be informed by awareness of their existence and the prominence they play in "real-life" events.		::::::Even situated within that world, for people who are aware of the full breadth of humanity's history and the conflict between the Assassins and Templars, I would think Assassins would still be the primary topic for the term ''(A/a)ssassins'' where a distinction cannot be made—even more-so because they would constitute the true history of the world and arguably also its "true" meaning. In this world, it might even make more sense to categorize Booth under "Templar agents", "Templar sleeper agents", or "Templar puppets" ''without'' a generalized ''assassin'' category that would not be useful in a world of Assassins. You might be thinking of it in terms of writing for still a generalized audience who may not have knowledge about the Assassins and Templars, but of course, if our wiki existed in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe, our direction would actually be informed by awareness of their existence and the prominence they play in "real-life" events.

	:::::::If you are fine by thinking of an alternate name proposal, we can begin exploring that right away (probably in a different page). I also do not mind exploring how we codify the term ''assassination''. Though I am a bit wary we might end up imposing our own speculative interpretations, it could be worth a shot, might deepen our understanding of the lore, might be helpful for future issues of organization, and might even be fun. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::::::If you are fine by thinking of an alternate name proposal, we can begin exploring that right away (probably in a different page). I also do not mind exploring how we codify the term ''assassination''. Though I am a bit wary we might end up imposing our own speculative interpretations, it could be worth a shot, might deepen our understanding of the lore, might be helpful for future issues of organization, and might even be fun. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-21T03:57:14Z

Deletion proposal

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	:::::So like I said Assassins isn't a demonym and while we might have a naming standard for ethnicity, residency, etc., group affiliation doesn't fall under that. Furthermore my arguments about OOU vs IU stem from the idea that this wiki (beyond obvious OOU topics) is supposed to operate as a wikipedia within the AC universe. I assume a wikipedia article within the AC universe would still categorize John Wilkes Booth etc. as "assassins" (or "individuals who have committed assassinations") and thus we should as well. I do agree with the alternative category name proposal and the fact that we would need to codify what we consider an "assassination" but once done I don't think it will be that much of a problem to manage. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:19, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		:::::So like I said Assassins isn't a demonym and while we might have a naming standard for ethnicity, residency, etc., group affiliation doesn't fall under that. Furthermore my arguments about OOU vs IU stem from the idea that this wiki (beyond obvious OOU topics) is supposed to operate as a wikipedia within the AC universe. I assume a wikipedia article within the AC universe would still categorize John Wilkes Booth etc. as "assassins" (or "individuals who have committed assassinations") and thus we should as well. I do agree with the alternative category name proposal and the fact that we would need to codify what we consider an "assassination" but once done I don't think it will be that much of a problem to manage. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:19, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
			::::::I wasn't aware that ''demonym'' specifically can only refer to the noun referring to a group of people ''in relation to a place''. I always assumed from the roots that by extension, it can also refer to the word used for a group of people in relation to organizations. I guess I'm probably mistaken there although then I don't know what you would call the name used for people in relation to their organization. In any case, that would result in arguing semantics. Regardless of the proper term for it, I am still referring to the name used for a member of an organization. Group affiliation is meant to fall under that same naming standard and did before Jasca abused his bot.

			::::::Your perspective about how it might be more IU to include people like "John Wilkes Booth" under "assassins" does make a bit more sense to me, or at least I can see where you're coming from more. But I think that there is also the question of primacy even within the ''Assassin's Creed'' world. In that world, there is still a lexical distinction between Assassins, as in a member of that organization, and assassins in general, and we would still be faced with a choice between using that category name for Assassins or assassins. Nor would it necessarily follow that we ''have'' to have a category for the latter if it is not useful or convenient. Yes, John Wilkes Booth was an assassin, just as he was in real-life, but we do not have to have a category accounting for that fact.

			::::::Even situated within that world, for people who are aware of the full breadth of humanity's history and the conflict between the Assassins and Templars, I would think Assassins would still be the primary topic for the term ''(A/a)ssassins'' where a distinction cannot be made—even more-so because they would constitute the true history of the world and arguably also its "true" meaning. In this world, it might even make more sense to categorize Booth under "Templar agents", "Templar sleeper agents", or "Templar puppets" ''without'' a generalized ''assassin'' category that would not be useful in a world of Assassins. You might be thinking of it in terms of writing for still a generalized audience who may not have knowledge about the Assassins and Templars, but of course, if our wiki existed in the ''Assassin's Creed'' universe, our direction would actually be informed by awareness of their existence and the prominence they play in "real-life" events.

			:::::::If you are fine by thinking of an alternate name proposal, we can begin exploring that right away (probably in a different page). I also do not mind exploring how we codify the term ''assassination''. Though I am a bit wary we might end up imposing our own speculative interpretations, it could be worth a shot, might deepen our understanding of the lore, might be helpful for future issues of organization, and might even be fun. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 03:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

imported>Lacrossedeamon: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-21T03:19:13Z

Deletion proposal

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	:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
	::::I think Yeluohe alone is also a demonym, Chinese has no pluralization, and I did find "Yeluohe members" to sound really awkward as well (basically sounding like "Templars members"). Actually, it's whether it can be used in the singular that I'm not sure about lol. Its precise meaning is lost to us because it was in an old Turkic language that got transliterated into Middle Chinese and then read in modern Mandarin before being transliterated again into English. But sources online just suggest that it meant something along the lines of [[wikt:壯士\|壯士]], which I guess is one way of referring to elite warriors. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::::I think Yeluohe alone is also a demonym, Chinese has no pluralization, and I did find "Yeluohe members" to sound really awkward as well (basically sounding like "Templars members"). Actually, it's whether it can be used in the singular that I'm not sure about lol. Its precise meaning is lost to us because it was in an old Turkic language that got transliterated into Middle Chinese and then read in modern Mandarin before being transliterated again into English. But sources online just suggest that it meant something along the lines of [[wikt:壯士\|壯士]], which I guess is one way of referring to elite warriors. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
			:::::Well first addressing Darman, no. Demonyms refer to a group of people regionally, It does not refer to people due to membership or occupation. I don't know why we are trying to treat Assassins as a demonym when it isn't. As for your list we could remove "members" from the Cult branches you mentioned and the Wardens if that is what we finally decide but the other we should not because those categories should already be in use as supercategories for topic pertaining to the various organizations beyond just membership such as locations or cult icons.

			:::::So like I said Assassins isn't a demonym and while we might have a naming standard for ethnicity, residency, etc., group affiliation doesn't fall under that. Furthermore my arguments about OOU vs IU stem from the idea that this wiki (beyond obvious OOU topics) is supposed to operate as a wikipedia within the AC universe. I assume a wikipedia article within the AC universe would still categorize John Wilkes Booth etc. as "assassins" (or "individuals who have committed assassinations") and thus we should as well. I do agree with the alternative category name proposal and the fact that we would need to codify what we consider an "assassination" but once done I don't think it will be that much of a problem to manage. [[User:Lacrossedeamon\|Lacrossedeamon]] ([[User talk:Lacrossedeamon\|talk]]) 03:19, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-21T02:58:30Z

Deletion proposal

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	::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
	::::I think Yeluohe alone is also a demonym, Chinese has no pluralization, and I did find "Yeluohe members" to sound really awkward as well. Its precise meaning is lost to us because it was in an old Turkic language that got transliterated into Middle Chinese and then read in modern Mandarin before being transliterated again into English. But sources online just suggest that it meant something along the lines of [[wikt:壯士\|壯士]], which I guess is one way of referring to elite warriors. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::::I think Yeluohe alone is also a demonym, Chinese has no pluralization, and I did find "Yeluohe members" to sound really awkward as well (basically sounding like "Templars members"). Actually, it's whether it can be used in the singular that I'm not sure about lol. Its precise meaning is lost to us because it was in an old Turkic language that got transliterated into Middle Chinese and then read in modern Mandarin before being transliterated again into English. But sources online just suggest that it meant something along the lines of [[wikt:壯士\|壯士]], which I guess is one way of referring to elite warriors. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-21T02:57:08Z

Deletion proposal

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	::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
			::::I think Yeluohe alone is also a demonym, Chinese has no pluralization, and I did find "Yeluohe members" to sound really awkward as well. Its precise meaning is lost to us because it was in an old Turkic language that got transliterated into Middle Chinese and then read in modern Mandarin before being transliterated again into English. But sources online just suggest that it meant something along the lines of [[wikt:壯士\|壯士]], which I guess is one way of referring to elite warriors. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-21T01:45:19Z

Deletion proposal

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	:I'm not sure how best to describe Cult of Kosmos or the Order of the Ancients' older branches of Dominion, Hunters, and the Storm. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 23:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)		:I'm not sure how best to describe Cult of Kosmos or the Order of the Ancients' older branches of Dominion, Hunters, and the Storm. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 23:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
	::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
			:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

imported>Sol Pacificus: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-21T01:15:47Z

Deletion proposal

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	*Every "Wardens of X" group in the Order		*Every "Wardens of X" group in the Order
	:I'm not sure how best to describe Cult of Kosmos or the Order of the Ancients' older branches of Dominion, Hunters, and the Storm. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 23:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)		:I'm not sure how best to describe Cult of Kosmos or the Order of the Ancients' older branches of Dominion, Hunters, and the Storm. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 23:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
			::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

imported>Darman36: /* Deletion proposal */

2021-06-20T23:55:26Z

Deletion proposal

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	In any case, I can assure you that naming a category about individuals who (attempted/committed) assassinations "Category:Assassins" would continue to cause troubles down the line even if you clarified its usage in the page itself. Readers who scroll down the article and find some Templar Grand Master listed as an "assassin" would balk, or editors would reflexively add "Category:Assassins" with the mind that it means members of the Assassin Brotherhood after "Category:Assassins" become a prominent category again, or editors would debate endlessly whether a certain individual should be added or removed or not.		In any case, I can assure you that naming a category about individuals who (attempted/committed) assassinations "Category:Assassins" would continue to cause troubles down the line even if you clarified its usage in the page itself. Readers who scroll down the article and find some Templar Grand Master listed as an "assassin" would balk, or editors would reflexively add "Category:Assassins" with the mind that it means members of the Assassin Brotherhood after "Category:Assassins" become a prominent category again, or editors would debate endlessly whether a certain individual should be added or removed or not.

	To be honest, except ~~our~~ of sheer obstinacy, I cannot fathom the reason you would keep missing most of these extensive problems (you always address only the most minor) without providing an explanation why the category you propose is significant enough to be warranted and without even offering alternatives taking these problems into account. I don't mean to impugn on your underlying motivations, but please understand that this has gone on for so long without everything I raise being addressed whenever we discuss this. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC)		To be honest, except out of sheer obstinacy, I cannot fathom the reason you would keep missing most of these extensive problems (you always address only the most minor) without providing an explanation why the category you propose is significant enough to be warranted and without even offering alternatives taking these problems into account. I don't mean to impugn on your underlying motivations, but please understand that this has gone on for so long without everything I raise being addressed whenever we discuss this. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 19:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
			:So, uh, I'll let you two hash that out between yourselves, but Sol, as I understand, demonyms are plural names for groups of people. I just looked at [Category:Organizations] and if I have this right, then we would only remove "members" from [Category: X members] from the following groups, correct?
			*Children of Danu
			*Daughters of Artemis
			*Eyes of Kosmos
			*Followers of Ares
			*Heroes of the Cult
			*Worshippers of the Bloodline
			*Every "Wardens of X" group in the Order
			:I'm not sure how best to describe Cult of Kosmos or the Order of the Ancients' older branches of Dominion, Hunters, and the Storm. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 23:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

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	::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
	::::I think Yeluohe alone is also a demonym, Chinese has no pluralization, and I did find "Yeluohe members" to sound really awkward as well. Its precise meaning is lost to us because it was in an old Turkic language that got transliterated into Middle Chinese and then read in modern Mandarin before being transliterated again into English. But sources online just suggest that it meant something along the lines of [[wikt:壯士\|壯士]], which I guess is one way of referring to elite warriors. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::::I think Yeluohe alone is also a demonym, Chinese has no pluralization, and I did find "Yeluohe members" to sound really awkward as well (basically sounding like "Templars members"). Actually, it's whether it can be used in the singular that I'm not sure about lol. Its precise meaning is lost to us because it was in an old Turkic language that got transliterated into Middle Chinese and then read in modern Mandarin before being transliterated again into English. But sources online just suggest that it meant something along the lines of [[wikt:壯士\|壯士]], which I guess is one way of referring to elite warriors. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

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	::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
	:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
			::::I think Yeluohe alone is also a demonym, Chinese has no pluralization, and I did find "Yeluohe members" to sound really awkward as well. Its precise meaning is lost to us because it was in an old Turkic language that got transliterated into Middle Chinese and then read in modern Mandarin before being transliterated again into English. But sources online just suggest that it meant something along the lines of [[wikt:壯士\|壯士]], which I guess is one way of referring to elite warriors. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 02:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

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	:I'm not sure how best to describe Cult of Kosmos or the Order of the Ancients' older branches of Dominion, Hunters, and the Storm. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 23:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)		:I'm not sure how best to describe Cult of Kosmos or the Order of the Ancients' older branches of Dominion, Hunters, and the Storm. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 23:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
	::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)		::I'm not entirely sure with Eyes of Kosmos since ''eye'' doesn't usually mean people, but I guess in this case, it does? But yes for the others. I think "Daughters of Artemis members" might even be grammatically incorrect or a tautology. [[User:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#990000;font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:17px">'''Sol Pacificus'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Sol Pacificus\|<span style="color:#D4AF37;font-family:Californian FB;font-size:11px">(Cyfiero)</span>]]</sup> 01:15, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
			:::OK, thanks. I think the "Eyes" indeed mean people, like an metaphorical name for spies. I'll start moving these now. Oh, and I think Yeluohe is a plural noun, too? At least, that's how we seem to have it, and WP describes it as a troop force both on Shi Siming and An Lushan's pages. – [[User:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT;font-size:15px;color:#">Darman</span>]] ([[User talk:Darman36\|<span style="font-family:Viner Hand ITC;color:#">talk</span>]]) 01:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)