Talk:Ratonhnhaké:ton/Archive 2

2012-10-23T23:34:39Z

72.78.92.97: /* Article Rename */

{{/Archives}}
== Move proposal ==

It would seem that Connor's name is not Connor Kenway. It was a misconception that originated with GameInformer, and it quickly spread the web. Alex Hutchinson already quickly addressed the matter by saying that the name is a spoiler. However, I do not have an official source for this, other than an inside source. Therefore we can't just remove any trace of the surname Kenway, and completely removing it would also raise suspicion.

However, I cannot help but be bothered with seeing his name like this though, and thus I would like to request a move to Ratonhnhaké:ton, his birth name. When the game does come out, the article title will either have to be Ratonhnhaké:ton or Connor. I personally find Connor to be a bit on the short side, and it is merely a pseudonym. Therefore I think that the name Ratonhnhaké:ton would be the better of the two options, and we can already move the article now without removing the traces of the name Kenway. Even if Connor does turn out to take on the name Kenway and I am wrong, this name would still be a pseudonym and not his actual birth name. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 21:39, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

<strike>;Move to Ratonhnhaké<nowiki>:</nowiki>ton </strike>
# <strike>-- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 21:39, October 1, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>I've always liked his Native name rather than Connor. Bonzi_06 21:49, October 1, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>I still don't like what happened to [[Al Mualim]], but if it's standard procedure, by all means. {{User:Stormbeast/sig}} 01:12, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>Ratohnhaké:ton, to me, just sounds much more authentic. Have "Connor" redirect to the page. --[[User:Jjacobmartinn|Jjacobmartinn]] ([[User talk:Jjacobmartinn|talk]]) 05:19, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>Gr. Edit conflict. -- {{User:Gabriel Auditore/sig}} 05:20, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>While I initially thought typing the name into a search bar would be a bitch, now that the suggestions pop up once again, I support this. --[[User:Kainzorus Prime|Kainzorus Prime]] [[User talk:Kainzorus Prime|Walkie-talkie]] 07:24, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>--[[User:ACsenior|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior|talk]]) 13:05, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>

;<strike>Keep as Connor Kenway and move to Connor later </strike>
#<strike>There's a reason Connor is Connor and it's so his name is easier for us to say and write. Using his birth name defeats the purpose of him having an assumed name. Look at Michael Caine, Prince, George Michael, Elton John and Freddie Mercury, those aren't birthnames but they're the names these people go by. --[[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] ([[User talk:Alientraveller|talk]]) 21:58, October 1, 2012 (UTC) </strike>

;<strike>Comments </strike>
#<strike>As long as a redirect to Ratonhnhaké:ton exists, I won't mind at all. [[User:Slate Vesper|Slate Vesper]] ([[User talk:Slate Vesper|talk]]) 21:46, October 1, 2012 (UTC) </strike>

##<strike>I second this. I will still call him 'Connor Kenway' until I'm proven wrong officially. {{User:The Crimson Eagle/sig}} 18:28, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>Alientraveller, in regards to that, we have always used real names rather than the pseudonyms or titles that characters are most known by. For example Suleiman the Magnificent is called Suleiman I. Real names have always taken precedence over the names people are most known by. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 22:15, October 1, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>I wouldn't consider it a pseudonym or title, it's a completely valid alternative name with historical precedent: notable Native Americans (eg. Joseph and Molly Brant, Joseph Cook, John Norton) from the period adopted English names for ease of communication. I'm suggesting third option now, of Connor Ratohnhaketon, similar to Joseph Brant's parents being called Peter and Margaret Tehonwaghkwangearahkwa. Anyway, this is all my opinion, I don't mean to sway anyone one way or the other. Both names are valid for Ubisoft and should be used across the Wiki. --[[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] ([[User talk:Alientraveller|talk]]) 23:09, October 1, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>Hm you know Sima... now that you mention it, that does sound like a good idea. Alientraveler, putting "Connor" and then his birth name is kinda redundant as it is not a surname but his birth name. One thing I am curious about is bringing up La Volpe, as it is not his real name even though he goes by it. Well I don't have much else to say on this matter.. so long we have a redirect because I don't think I can memorize the spelling of Connor's birth name. [[User:SupremeAssassin|''Supreme Master Assassin'']][[User_talk:SupremeAssassin|IL Mentori]] 04:49, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>I'm a hold out until the game is released. I prefer Connor but Sima makes a very good point. -- ► '''''[[User:Kaloneous|Kaloneous]]''''' ◄[[User talk:Kaloneous| ♣HelpDesk♣]] 04:54, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>Why don't we just wait until the Game release and update it according to the database entry. {{User:ssj456sharath/sig}} 05:04, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>That won't do, Bob - Revelations database still had "Al Mualim" there, while the novel named Rashid properly. I suspect it will be the case here too. --[[User:Kainzorus Prime|Kainzorus Prime]] [[User talk:Kainzorus Prime|Walkie-talkie]] 07:34, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>Does that mean every 'Connor' in his article will be changed to Ratohnhaketon or is it just the page name? And does that mean everytime we link Connor's page we will have to write his full name? {{User:EnterRandomName/sig}} 13:21, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>You'll be able to just link with an alias. Same way the pages that say "Al Mualim" still have Rashid ad-Din Sinan in the link. That, and copy-pasting isn't hard.--[[User:Kainzorus Prime|Kainzorus Prime]] [[User talk:Kainzorus Prime|Walkie-talkie]] 13:28, October 2, 2012 (UTC) </strike>
#<strike>This the same discussion that was discussed earlier further up the page. in my view there is precedent either way, not sure you can properly compare an assumed name/pseudonym with a title, in most countries a name taken up by someone for use as an identifier is an official name and treated the same as a birth name, regardless if you replace your previous/birth name or are known by both.{{User:Aegritudo/sig}} 13:32, October 2, 2012 (UTC)</strike>

One week of voting has passed, and the majority is in favor of changing the name to Ratonhnhaké:ton as opposed to leaving it like it is. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 08:05, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

== Who is Ratonhnhaké:ton ==
I gotta reply to this Master Sima Yi guy. Connor Kenway if it is his name is his official name. It doesn't matter if it's not his actual birthname or not. When making bio's and the like you use the name they are most well known for, not what name they were given at birth. For example below...

Taken name ~ Given Name

Jackie Chan ~ Chan Kong-sang

Charlie Sheen ~ Carlos Irwin Estevez

Ferdinand Magellan ~ Fernão de Magalhães

Genghis Khan ~ Temujin

Mahatma Ghandi ~ Mohandas Ghandi

Cristopher Columbus ~ Cristoforo Colombo

People know who Snoop Dogg is not who Calvin Cordozar Broadus is.

[[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 09:33, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

:There has been a vote, the majority voted for Ratonhnhaké:ton. Thus, the page is named so. There are still redirects that bring you from "Connor Kenway" to the actual page. [[User:Amnestyyy|'''Nesty''']] [[User_Talk:Amnestyyy|Contact me!]] 09:58, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

::This "Master Sima Yi guy" has already pointed out that his name isn't Kenway to start with, and there indeed has been a vote in which the majority voted for Ratonhnhaké:ton. You should have voted Nay when the vote was still open, and even then the majority would have voted Yay. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 10:03, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

:::Forget the Kenway part then. His name is officially "Connor". There is no mistaking it for anything else. Have you ever heard of Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake? No you probably haven't, because he's known by his adopted name Sitting Bull.[[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 12:31, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

:::Yeah we get your point man, but there was a vote for it you know so just get over it. i particularly like Ratonhnhaké:ton anyway. [[User:Trever09| Trever09]] ([[User talk:Trever09|talk]]) 12:35, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

::::I have never heard of Sitting Bull either. You keep completely ignoring the fact that Connor is not '''the''' name he is known by, but one of two names. He still goes by the name Ratonhnhaké:ton among his fellow Native Americans, but goes by the name Connor among the colonists. With two names he is known by, why would Connor be the dominating one, while Ratonhnhaké:ton is his actual birth name? It also has no use in battling the result of a community vote. If you really are so dissatisfied with it, you can create a new vote in the same format as I did mine. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 12:37, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

::::Sitting Bull was a Lakota chieftan famous for defeating Custer at the battle of little big horn. Also should include this link http://assassinscreed.ubi.com/ac3/en-gb/game-info/index.aspx which shows even ubisoft only uses the name 'Connor' in fact not once on that page is Ratonhnhaké:ton mentioned. I have no idea how these votes of yours go or anything, as I only just visited this wikia today. As for Connor being the dominate name, I've shown you several examples of how adopted names are dominate over birth names. There are really no examples of birth names being dominant over an adopted name.[[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 12:47, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

:::::Yes, Ubisoft always uses the name Connor because they shamelessly said multiple times that even though have trouble pronouncing and writing the name Ratonhnhaké:ton. Does that mean we should too? It's the actual released media that we go by, not promotional material. As for your other examples, they have no relevance to Connor's case. I get where you are coming from but I disagree with you, and something as major as this will not be changed back without a community vote. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 12:50, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
::::::Then set up another vote. And as for should we too... Yes I think we should also. I have only really seen very few mentions of that Ratonhnhaké:ton.. On a quick subject change. I have an even bigger issue of a racial stand. Replacing the word "Native American" with the more correct 'Mohawk'.[[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 13:07, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

:::::::That last point can easily be done, but I am not setting up another vote seeing as I don't want it changed. If you want a new vote, you will have to create it yourself. I have no problem offering help to somebody else, but this is with the intention of undoing something I have done (which I still support) and that is just silly. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 13:10, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

::::::::Thank you on the Mohawk change. Native American is imo a racial slur created by politicians. And that last part of what you said... As the admin you should not have any opinion whatsoever. It's even worse when there is a historical standpoint to the counter argument showing false info.[[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 13:17, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::An admin is just a member like everyone else entrusted with additional duties and is just as well entitled to his own opinion and to express that. You are just as well capable to start that vote, and I'm not going to start it for you if you don't even try. If you have tried and are facing problems, I will help out. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 13:21, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::Honestly, I have no idea where to look to put a vote up in the first place. [[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 13:24, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::You just do it here, create a new section explaining your opinion, then create three sections titled Yay, Nay and Comments similar to the vote up above... -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 13:25, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

== Article Rename ==

Alright with Master Sima Yi's allowing a new vote about the naming style here it is. You can still check the previous vote to see the reasoning and I'll include a couple countering arguments under the comments.[[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 13:54, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

;Leave as Ratonhnhaké<nowiki>:</nowiki>ton
# -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 13:58, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
# There's no reason for you to be having another vote, we did it a while back, you should have voted then. It should stay as his birth name. --[[User:Jjacobmartinn|Jjacobmartinn]] ([[User talk:Jjacobmartinn|talk]]) 14:03, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#--{{User:Odranoelluta/sig}} 14:06, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#I think we should keep it like this until we know more from the game (which isn't too far away at all). After that we will know more for sure and this vote is premature in the sense that it could have waited until after the game was out. {{User:Kaloneous/sig}} 14:09, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
# {{User:ThatRandomUser/sig}} 14:11, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#This second vote is unnecessary and pointless. {{User:The Crimson Eagle/sig}} 14:50, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#We already voted on this. {{User:Gabriel Auditore/sig}} 14:54, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#I'll have to agree with [[User:Kaloneous|Kal]] on this one.. --{{User:Vatsa1708/sig}} 14:58, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#I'd like to vote for "Connor", but then I'd be wrong. -- {{Signature/'R BlaiddDdraig}} 15:06, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#--[[User:ACsenior|ACsenior]] ([[User talk:ACsenior|talk]]) 15:24, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#This is me agreeing with [[User:Vatsa1708|V]] and Kal. {{User:Stormbeast/sig}} 16:39, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#This is me agreeing with Stormbeast, who is agreeing with [[User:Vatsa1708|V]] and [[User:Kaloneous|Kal]]. [[User:Slate Vesper|Slate Vesper]] ([[User talk:Slate Vesper|talk]]) 16:43, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#This is me going "Denied" at a proposal put forward by a user who just joined and thinks they know better than the majority of the community. --[[User:Kainzorus Prime|Kainzorus Prime]] [[User talk:Kainzorus Prime|Walkie-talkie]] 22:37, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#This is me agreeing with [[User:Slate Vesper|Slate]], who is agreeing with [[User:Stormbeast|Storm]], who is agreeing with [[User:Vatsa1708|V]] who is agreeing with [[User:Kaloneous|Kal]]...also I agree with Kain. {{User:Lucan07/signature}} 08:48, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
#Guys, this is just silly. You can still type Connor in the search and it will simply bring you to the correct page. I really, really do not see the use in this vote. [[User:Amnestyyy|'''Nesty''']] [[User_Talk:Amnestyyy|Contact me!]] 09:13, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
#I'm voting this one sounds better and its original too [[User:Trever09| Trever09]] ([[User talk:Trever09|talk]]) 10:45, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
#No reason to make it Connor. His birth name is what he should be called. [[User:TheDarkKnightHasRisen|The Dark Knight]] ([[User talk:TheDarkKnightHasRisen|talk]]) 18:58, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
#As it stands, "Connor" is nothing more than an adopted nom de guerre. --{{Signature/Jasca Ducato}} 12:13, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
#my view is that either name works just as well as the other, but since the majority of the community prefer ratonhnhake:ton and that is how it is currently named i do not see a reason to change again. {{User:Aegritudo/sig}} 17:22, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
#Doesn't this wiki have a policy of using birth names over common names? An example would be the Al Mualim page. I also agree with Kal and everyone who agreed with him. [[User:SkytowerC|SkytowerC]] ([[User talk:SkytowerC|talk]]) 20:25, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

;Change to Connor
# [[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 13:54, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
# I actually think that Connor sounds better. Call me lazy, but I prefer typing Connor instead of Ratonhnhaké. [[User:AssassinHood|AssassinHood]] - [[User talk:AssassinHood|Let's talk!]] 14:11, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
# I think Connor Kenway is better since everyone calls him Connor both in the game and media. While Ratonhnhaké:ton is known throughout both game and media, but it was rarely used. Ratonhnhaké:ton should be the one redirected not Connor Kenway. --[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] ([[User talk:Cococrash11|talk]]) 21:44, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
#I very much prefer Connor Kenway in every way, that Connor still redirects to Ratonhnhaké:ton doesn't feel the same, i think it was better when the page had it's original name. [[User:AzureHibiki|AzureHibiki]] ([[User talk:AzureHibiki|talk]]) 15:56, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
#I think that it should be changed to 'Connor Kenway' because his fathers name IS Haythan Kenway, and if he had to pick a British surname it would probably be Kenway. But, as we don't have significant proof of that yet, I will settle for 'Connor'. Also, even though I'm an anon on the wiki, my name on the ubi forums is Jexx21. [[Special:Contributions/72.78.92.97|72.78.92.97]] 23:34, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
;Comments
# The first example used was "Suleiman the Magnificent" being known as Suleiman I has no bearing in the concept. 'the Magnificent' aspect of his name is an epithet which are generally never used during the person's life. A far better example would be that of Augustus who was the first emperor of Rome. His actual birth name was Gaius Octavius. Furthermore to bring up some people more closely related, Joseph Brant(Thayendanegea), Joseph Louis Cook(Akiatonharónkwen), John Deseronot(Deserontyon), are all Mohawk's from during the revolutionary war who are listed and known under adopted names with a mention of their tribal name. [[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 13:54, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
# I don't think connor's names can be judged the same way as rashid's.in that case it was a title vs his name.but connor and ratonhnhake:ton are both his official names.his english name and his mohawk name.sure ratonhnhake:ton is his birth name,but connor is the name he adopts as an assassin moving through the colonies.and only among his people does anybody call him ratonhnhake:ton.the name he most commonly goes by is connor.not ratonhnhake:ton.--[[User:Assassin of 81|Assassin of 81]] ([[User talk:Assassin of 81|talk]]) 14:49, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
# Looking like the vote is unanamous for Ratonahake:ton. [[User:Trever09| Trever09]] ([[User talk:Trever09|talk]]) 19:03, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
# Note that the vote says "Change to Connor", not "Change to Connor Kenway". Kenway is not part of his name, it would seem. It's not being moved to Connor Kenway either way unless it is explicitly stated so in the game. -- {{User:Master Sima Yi/sig}} 15:59, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
# This is directed at SkytowerC. You mentioned the example "Al Mualim". That is arabic for 'The Teacher' or 'The Mentor' IE: A title. A title is comparable to an epithet which has no bearing on this. An adopted name is more important then an actual birth name.[[User:LancelotLoire|LancelotLoire]] ([[User talk:LancelotLoire|talk]]) 11:30, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
# @LancelotLoire: We have [[Rodrigo Borgia]]'s article under his birthname despite the fact that he died "Alexander VI". (When somebody is elected Pope, their name is legally and officially changed to that which they have adopted). --{{Signature/Jasca Ducato}} 11:55, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
# I have to say that this vote was pointless. (Due to it having been done already and thinking that its outcome would be any different.) [[User:Trever09| Trever09]] ([[User talk:Trever09|talk]]) 18:57, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
# You speak for us all. {{User:The Crimson Eagle/sig}} 19:00, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
# I kinda got the idea that it was the majoritys opinion. {{User:Trever09/sig}} 22:39, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
# To be fair Rodrigo Borgia was introduced into the games as Rodrigo Borgia, And was under that name for most of his appearances.

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Talk:Ratonhnhaké:ton/Archive 2