Assassin's Creed Wiki - User contributions [en-gb]

Talk:Jesus of Nazareth

2013-09-01T20:22:13Z

173.55.237.248:

Oh come on. This template is not confirming that Jesus is the Son of God, just simply that he existed and people at least thought he was. If you believe he wasn't at LEAST a historical, living man in the 3 BC - 30 AD time period, that takes a huge leap of faith.[[Special:Contributions/173.55.237.248|173.55.237.248]] 20:21, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

There is no evidence Jesus ever lived, or is it?
If not, the template stating this is wrong.[[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 17:31, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

It is known with relative certainty that christ existed. I' ve read some extra-biblical sources that mention him. I can't recall where I found the sources exactly, but he is mentioned. It is also known that he was baptized by John the Baptist, performed some healings, and was crucified. Beyond this, nothing else is known for certain, so we only have what is written in the Bible. ([[User:Toolen|Toolen]] ([[User talk:Toolen|talk]]) 22:13, May 18, 2013 (UTC))
:Jesus is a fact, either you agree with it or not. Some people believes it existed, some people believe it don't, but the character sure is real. Please refrain from those high-religious discussions since it causes unnecessary turmoil in peaceful waters. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 17:14, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
::you stumbled here: either something is fact, or “you agree with it or not”. so if some believe in it and some not and there is no evidence for both “this page is about a real/historical person” is a wrong statement and should be changed to “this page is about a person whose existence is believed in, but not proved” or something. that’s not religious. it’s religious to think something’s a fact, no matter it’s proved or not. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 17:31, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
:::The guy exists, either in our world or in people's minds. Except for atheists and other religions extremists, Christ is mostly regarded to have been a real person. But to keep it in the AC universe, Al Mualim says he existed, so he's real. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 03:53, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
::::if he is, i want a source: i heard about documents proving his existence, but i don’t know if ''they'' exist. and stuff existing in people’s minds and nowhere else is mostly regarded to be delusion. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 16:22, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
:::::Join a archeological expedition, then. Use your lifetime to search the Middle-East for proof of his existence. To this wiki (and me, per therefore, since my personal oppinions won't interfere with my wikiduties) only two things matter: Our timetable counts year as AC and BC, Anno Dommini and what not, with the 0 year being Jesus' birth. And Al Mualim says he was just a carpenter who used a PoE, so he was real. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 19:48, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
::::::i am sure many people more interested in jesus than me wasted their lifes searching for his remains/stuff. and this is neither about the in-game world nor about some ancient tradition, i’m talking only about the sentence “This page describes a person, place, thing or event that exists (or existed) in real life.”. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 22:07, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Umm.. if were being that specific and direct, we have no absolute evidence that machiavelli was real, or that da Vinci was real, (anyone could have painted those paintings), or that Pope Alexander VI was real, or King Richard either since they arent alive now, and cameras werent invented to document their existince. no has any photos or video of their lives or even their corpses. the only proof we have of the life of any historical figure before thomas edison and the camera is WRITTEN DOCUMENTS passed down by historians. one such document was the BIBLE, (i assume you arent denying that the bible is a historic document) and if we are to put that into question than whats to stop me from saying that poeple only BELIEVE that De Medici exists because of works such as The Prince and historical ledgers. Now who's to say if the accuracy of these records can be trusted? maybe The Prince was a forgery? the point is the bible is just as much historic record as any other document that ever existed. [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 23:03, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
:well, i know fantasy books containing more facts than the bible. it’s a historical novel at best. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 23:19, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
This is a public wiki, and comments like that are offensive. but nonetheless, no matter how factual you determine the records to be, they are still records. and your religious opinion has no influence on our templates. sorry, but if you would like to debate religion, youll have to go elsewhere [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 23:25, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, we have members of all religions in this wiki. If just the fact that a tempalte says that Jesus existed bothers you, imagine what your comments about the bible being a fantasy means to religious people. As I said before, "refrain from those high-religious discussions since it causes unnecessary turmoil in peaceful waters." Religion and/or political discussions are not tolerated here, and I'll have to take a measure if this continues for more than a day. Warning One, and it won't have a second. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 03:12, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

:Just thought I'd put in my two cents. The article is based around Jesus as a person in Assassin's Creed. Whether he existed in real life is irrelevant. ''I'', being a Christian, personally believe he exists, but in the Assassin's Creed universe he existed for sure. (Since Al Mualim says so). If you wanna be a religious bigot, take it somewhere else. --{{User:JFHavoc/Sig}} 03:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::you don’t understand the meaning of the word “bigot”, since i’m everything but that. and calling the bible a fantasy novel (with a few historic aspects) is simply the truth. most stories in there are undoubted just stories: not even the silliest christians i know call for example the genesis “a fact”. they all say it’s a metaphor.
::so let’s summarize: the bible contains enough metaphores not to call it “historic”. taht means you can’t take it as historic source because everything in it was either historic or a metaphor and there’s no waay to tell the difference. conclusion: there is as much prove of jesus’ existence than of the existence of adam, eve and their inbreed grandchildren.
::“inbreed” is btw. not offensive but fact: adam and eve are the first people, so their sons have to impregnate their mother or sisters to get children. q.e.d.
::are there other sources which said that jesus lived? if not, i will change the template, if yes, i want to have a link to them/seethem/… ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 12:14, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, a bigot is a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. Now I'm not saying that you're regarding us with hatred and intolerance, but you do seem to be pretty stubborn on this subject. Also, if you actually took the time to read the bible you'd see all of the evidence there is for the existence of a Creator. The Bible is more historically accurate than ''any other historical document we have right now''. All religious documents are filled with things that sound crazy, that's because when it comes to religion things are going to get a little weird. It's religion: that's just the way it is. I don't really wanna argue about this much more, since D. Cello is getting a little PO'd, so just try and be an honorable debater and think about what I've said. --{{User:JFHavoc/Sig}} 16:28, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::you just made my day :): “The Bible is more historically accurate than ''any other historical document we have right now''” ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 16:38, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
:My patience is running out and *somebody*'s going to get blocked... I'm not gonna lock this article since you, sheep, are not being directly offensive or agressive toward a member, and because I really like your nickname. But that aside, Jesus, be a character or a person, is real in our world. It wasn't invented for the AC Games. It wasn't something that came out of a creative producer dream. It was something created or documented two thousand years ago, and most of Earth's populace believes he was real. Wikipedia lists some proofs of his veracity, so you go there if you want and assimilate the entire article. About the template, it states "This page describes a person, place, thing or event that exists (or existed) in real life.” You don't believe he is a real person? Great. But you can't deny he is a real ''thing''. Discussion over, or I'll lock the page and maybe temporary block the arguers, if need arises. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 18:27, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::fair enough. maybe the template text is a bit misleading, then, but if you turn it like this, it does fullfill it’s purpose of linking to “real-world-stuff” in general. i won’t nitpick anymore. one more thing, though: why are you, JFHavoc, being a very religious person, on this wiki and like a game which criticises your belief as much as assassins creed does? this game has a strong atheistic undertone! (or better: anti-religious) ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 20:18, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
This topic (the relgious undertone of AC) seems less offensive than before, and its actually related to assassins creed in a major way, so i think its okay to discuss. if not, let me know, Cello. i think that the assassins creed series isnt about atheism but simply freedom of religion, all the character that say god is a falacy are antagonists, such as the templars, al mualim, and vidic. Altair, though he is an atheist, fights in defence of theism in his last conversation with al mualim (Just before they fight), this even seems to be one of his main reasons for fighting Al mualim (other than the mass mind control thing ;P) the hero of AC2, Ezio, is catholic, and he often gives italian-catholic prayers to those he kills, always saying raquiescat en pace (or however you spell that). yes, many of his targets are preists/cardinals/the pope. but, these men are all corrupted, and it could be said that he is cleasing the faith of those that would try to use it for evil, rather than attacking it. i think that even our current pope, (benedict the 16th i think) would aggree that rodrigio borgia, or pope alexander the 6th was a bad dude. he even raped catrina sforza, he was not nice. Altair also killed jubair when he tried to burn religious texts, (among other texts, but honestly, in the middle ages, how many people, in the middle disrict no less, could afford any secular text? especially when considering that almost all scribes were preists and our buddy Gutenburg hadnt came along yet) [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 21:12, June 7, 2010 (UTC) oh, P.S. im not christian or catholic or anything, i just dont think AC is atheistic. oh, and sorry to d. cello if you dont like this either, d. cello can erase it if he wants.
:i think the opposition against religious fanatics is stronger than the pledge for freedom of religion. note that all the ugly sides of the medieval (plagues, thievery, quacks, poverty, …) are not 'really' featured in the game, but the crusades, the hate preachers, the religious leaders and all are.
:furthermore i’m not quite sure about ezio. everytime somebody wishes him the help of god or something (for example lorenzo on the bridge) he remains quiet. and he sure is of talky sort. “requiescat in pace” may be of religious origin, but the saying is not really religious itself. the christians think you have an afterlife while “rest in peace” implies no movement after the death. “rest in peace” like “stay lying peacefully in your grave”.
:“atheistic”, however, means “without a god”. and the game is just that. the superior goals of both organisations (of which neither is good or bad, another hint http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb21710/common/skins/monobook/bullet.gif) are completely godless, the leaders too. by the way: i am convinced there is no such thing as an “agnostic”: the argumentation is basically that you can’t answer “do you 'believe' in god?” with “i don’t 'know'”. either you believe or you don’t there’s nothing between.
:but you are right insofar that neither of them fights against religion-that would be “anti-theistic”-but for their own conviction (or creed :)), which is godless/atheistic. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 21:51, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
:*the reason why for example japanese game mostly don’t have ultimately evil antagonists is because most japanese people are buddhists. and buddhists don’t have a good god vs evil satan. everyone is human and truly thinks he does the best there is. that’s one of the main reasons i like the assassin’s creed series: because there is no unlikely evil-because-i-can enemy but humans who want peace-utilizing methods the main character and his team/clan/friends don’t agree with.
Okay, so i get that the literal meaning of "rest in peace" doesn't relate to religion, but i seriously doubt that Ezio is actually telling his vcitims to “stay lying peacefully in their grave”.... this isnt exactly a zombie-survival game. as mario says, he is showing respect for the dead, and "dont move" is hardly repectful. i hope you would agree that Ezio, at least, is religious. though religious in a way like sister teodora (not the whole sex thing, just that he practices christianity in his own way, by killing evil guys). I also think that it showed so many religious figures in AC1 not to show the negitive side of religion, but simply because religious figures were the only ones with power in the holy land at that time. the game showed beggars and theives and crappy decaying buildings, though they werent important, true, but Al Mualim couldnt exactly be like "Altair, you must end the life of Bob the homeless man, he is betraying the people by pretending to have a broken leg to get more change" then you have to go and sneak past the defenses of a midieval soup kitchen, this would be much less exciting than killing a powerful leader in his fortress, and powerful leaders of the time where inevitably religious leaders.

also, the story does acually include "gods" as characters. Those who came before dont call themselves gods, but they created mankind, and the peices of eden which were "the power of god" is orby form. that completes my definition of god. when it said moses used the power of god to part the red sea, he did so in the series as well, using an apple? i think, or maybe the staff, but regardless, both are "powers" of the "gods", mankind's creators, even if that is a bit less monotheistic than the common judeo-christian belief. i would say, if anything, the series promotes a revival of greek/roman religion rather than atheism. [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 22:31, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
:sorry, i’m no native english speaker so the phrase about r.i.p. was not exactly good :). instead it is a phrase, like you said, about respect after the death.
:about those who came before: i interpret it exactly opposite: in the in-game reality the people invented their religions based on those who came before, the escape of adam and eve and the actions of completely powerless beings (such as jesus) who used the pieces of eden to create godlike illusion. rational explanations of the religions. atheistic message again. those who came before are just another humanoid species with highly advanced technology, them being seen as gods is because of clarke’s third law: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
:and again ezio: maybe he has his own belief, but i think his silence in religios things means he lost his believe somewhere along the way. he says what he thinks about almost anything but he never reveals anything about his belief. if people are talking about this subject. (i. e. he talks to theodora about her belief but careful not to say anything which would provoke a question abous his view on religion)
:‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 22:49, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::D. Cello has yet to aprove that this is even okay to talk about on his site, (or the wikia site in which he runs and maintains) and im getting a little worried, but I always saw ezio as very sarcastic and witty, always making jokes and the like. when he became quiet upon th mention of religion, i saw that as him becoming more serious and reverant, but maybe thats just me.also, most of the times where "god aid you" is mentioned, it is said as a goodbye, but the first sentence i wrote goes for the teodora part, i think if he was atheistic he would have made a sexual joke then, but maybe he was just trying not to offend the sister, who knows. i also dont think you need to be intangible or off among the heavens to be a "god". jesus is widely considered to be both divine and human. god also "made people in his image" so once can assume that if god has any kind of physical form, it would likely be generally humanoid. but im getting off the subject of AC, so i think that a technilogical device created by gods (though we havent decided on a clear definition of "god" yet) would have "holy power" and still be the same in my eyes. Moses never claimed he himself parted the red sea, he called god to do it. the difference between calling on god to open a sea and using a orb made by god to open a sea is negligible to me, at least when it comes to proving or disproving god's existance. so i would say that while AC alters the real life events stated in the bible, it is not in an attempt to disprove god. and i would also note that AC alters real life secular events as often as religious ones so i woud not consider the changing of biblical stories in AC to be anti-religious in nature [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 23:13, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
This has continued much longer than I would have liked, but as far as this' a discussion and everyone keeps it civilized; don't attacking each other beliefs, criticizing and stuff; you can go on forever. Just remember: we're here cause we love the game. Period. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 23:24, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
:::i’m sorry, but you got the story wrong: nobody never did anything godlike: they only made the people think they did. illusions.
:::why should an atheist make a sexual joke? i would have reacted similar: “well, quite a special way to worship *grin*”
:::again: minerva herself said that those who came before are not gods. if you slow down the “the truth” video, you see some guys forging a peace of eden. it’s technology, and the game is very clear in telling that nothing supernatural is involved (the eagle view is another thing, but i believe, it’s just some kind of visualized instinct: dogs can literally smell who’s their friend, maybe a similar sense is preserved in desmond’s bloodline. the genetics in the game are a bit screwed up: thousands of ancient’s memories saved in a few gigabyte dna. yeah…)
:::i’m really sorry, but you got this part of your theory wrong. there is really no chance that there is any godly magic involved in those who came before and their stuff. that’s what the whole story is about. an ancient high-tech culture with powerful technology. of course it does not disprove god: it is fiction. but in this fictional world, all incomprehensible happenings in history and mythology boil down to technologically induced hallucinations/illusions. that means that although some of the main characters could or could not believe in god, the ones who used the pieces thought they were godsent: we know better, those who came before compiled the thingies: the world the game plays in is godless. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 23:42, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::to me, the creation of such an illusion is godlike. the humans in the video seemed to be working on something, and the chica on the right was holding an apple and usuing mind control, but im not sure what the people were making, but regardless, just because minerva claims she is not a god, but to me it seems she is, whatever she says, she created man, was responsible for religious miracles, and was worshiped for it. maybe Minerva only ment that she was not the god ezio worshiped, not God, or Allah, or Yaweh. Technology created by gods is the power of the gods, just as machines we create are considered "the power of man". i dont believe any of it, in real life or in the game, is magic. god is not magic, he is not a wizard or anything, he is simply divine, superior. i would also say that those who came before are superior, possessing knowledge that humans of the current day cannot even comprehend. Minerva also syas desmonds name... in a hologram during the 1400s.... this hints at an opnipotence comparable to godly power. also, god made the world (biblicaly) using technology as well, if biological technology, the complex organ systems and innerworkings of living things as a system is a technology that far surpasses our own. I know that Minerva says she isnt a god, but if she isnt, than what more do you need to obtain divinity? [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 00:16, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
::oh, and i agree that the whole Eagle vision isnt magic, just a doglike sense of people intentions that seemed to be part of those who came before. it says somewhere that the whole color system thing (bad people being red, good blue) is just the animus's way of recreating that sense when desmond is put into once of the 3D holograms of his memories. [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 00:22, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
:::those who came before didn’t create the humans, they enslaved them. and everything which can’t be explained rationally is (in fiction) either not yet fully investigated or magic. wonders are magic (or, like here, mere illusions). and yes, they are very advanced, but that’s what we are, too–compared to stone age people. maybe in 3000 years a boy will find a dvd with assassins creed 2 frozen in some ice, develops in a few seconds with his wrist-comuter a way to read the old device, circumvents the copy-protection with an amused grin and laughs at what we thought to be futuristic after playing through the game in a few seconds with his neuro-pc-interface. what i want to say: just because you think the robots in “terminator” are godlike: they just have advanced technology. as said above: clarke’s third law: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” – [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 10:10, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

== If the Templars killed Jesus... ==

From what I understand, the AC fiction uses the real-world organization known as the Knight's Templar as a basis for an antagonistic force to the Assassins. It portrays them less and less like their real-world counterparts and more like some kind of Illuminati- manipulating governments and influential figures to achieve their own goals: the Pieces of Eden.

Why though do these people crucify Jesus of Nazareth in 33 A.D. to obtain his Shroud, when during the Crusades Era (About the time of AC1) they actually fight for Christianity? And in Renaissance Europe, they control the Catholic church? In the fiction of AC, they kill Jesus, yet they are based on a military organization in a religious war fighting for Christianity? [[Special:Contributions/24.239.50.56|24.239.50.56]] 06:31, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

:Video game magic. Nah, I imagine that their fight for Christianity was just a cover for their true goal, as you said.[[User:'R BlaiddDdraig|'R BlaiddDdraig]] 09:04, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

:I agree in part to what the gentleman above me stated, but I also have realized several things recently, in church of all places. Assuming that in the AC universe that the Bible is exactly the same, we can extract some interesting concepts. First, of all, it has been established that the SPQR, the Roman government, was manipulated by the group who would eventually become known as the Knights Templar. Essentially, the Templars had three men publicly executed in 33 CE. On the cross, Jesus stated to one of the men that he would be with Jesus in Paradise. A similar statement was made by Al Mualim in the 12th century; the promise to his servants that he could give them Paradise. Along with interactions with several Pieces of Eden, a mass following of incredibly devoted disciples, and those disciples referring to him as Teacher (or, perhaps, Mentor) one could assume that Christ was actually the grandmaster of a group that would one day become the Levantine Assassins. No wonder the Templars wanted him dead.

:Of course, this is just an assumption of mine and should probably be taken simply for the entertainment value it can provide. However, you should perhaps look into it a little more. It's very fun imagining the New Testament to be a sort of Assassin's Creed in-universe story. [[Special:Contributions/74.137.167.172|74.137.167.172]] 20:31, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

== 3 BC? ==

how can jesus be born in 3 bc when bc means before christ.[[Special:Contributions/2.97.0.167|2.97.0.167]] 17:17, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

He's Jesus. Nuff said. [[Special:Contributions/78.105.39.132|78.105.39.132]] 11:07, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

BC and AD are outdated terms used only in older texts. We now use the acronyms CE (Current Era) and BCE (Before Current Era). And to answer your question, when the original BC/AD terms were used, people obviously believed Jesus was born during the transition between the two. Later findings have proven otherwise it seems. Regardless, BCE and CE are the terms used professionally. -- Vaxis Dec 13 12:47 AM

[[User:S1monab0m|S1monab0m]] ([[User talk:S1monab0m|talk]]) 23:08, January 12, 2013 (UTC)Did jesus aquire an apple to turn water into wine? Al Mualim stated that an apple was used for that and The shrouds powers dind´t involve illusions.

==Image caption==
Could someone with authority please remove the full stop in Jesus' caption? I know this is trivial, and I'd do it myself, but it's (unsurprisingly) locked. {{User:The Crimson Eagle/sig}} 18:52, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Jesus of Nazareth

2013-09-01T20:21:50Z

173.55.237.248:

Oh come on. This template is not confirming that Jesus is the Son of God, just simply that he existed and people at least thought he was. If you believe he wasn't at LEAST a historical, living man in the 3 BC - 30 AD time period, that takes a huge leap of faith.[[Special:Contributions/173.55.237.248|173.55.237.248]] 20:21, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
There is no evidence Jesus ever lived, or is it?
If not, the template stating this is wrong.[[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 17:31, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

It is known with relative certainty that christ existed. I' ve read some extra-biblical sources that mention him. I can't recall where I found the sources exactly, but he is mentioned. It is also known that he was baptized by John the Baptist, performed some healings, and was crucified. Beyond this, nothing else is known for certain, so we only have what is written in the Bible. ([[User:Toolen|Toolen]] ([[User talk:Toolen|talk]]) 22:13, May 18, 2013 (UTC))
:Jesus is a fact, either you agree with it or not. Some people believes it existed, some people believe it don't, but the character sure is real. Please refrain from those high-religious discussions since it causes unnecessary turmoil in peaceful waters. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 17:14, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
::you stumbled here: either something is fact, or “you agree with it or not”. so if some believe in it and some not and there is no evidence for both “this page is about a real/historical person” is a wrong statement and should be changed to “this page is about a person whose existence is believed in, but not proved” or something. that’s not religious. it’s religious to think something’s a fact, no matter it’s proved or not. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 17:31, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
:::The guy exists, either in our world or in people's minds. Except for atheists and other religions extremists, Christ is mostly regarded to have been a real person. But to keep it in the AC universe, Al Mualim says he existed, so he's real. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 03:53, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
::::if he is, i want a source: i heard about documents proving his existence, but i don’t know if ''they'' exist. and stuff existing in people’s minds and nowhere else is mostly regarded to be delusion. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 16:22, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
:::::Join a archeological expedition, then. Use your lifetime to search the Middle-East for proof of his existence. To this wiki (and me, per therefore, since my personal oppinions won't interfere with my wikiduties) only two things matter: Our timetable counts year as AC and BC, Anno Dommini and what not, with the 0 year being Jesus' birth. And Al Mualim says he was just a carpenter who used a PoE, so he was real. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 19:48, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
::::::i am sure many people more interested in jesus than me wasted their lifes searching for his remains/stuff. and this is neither about the in-game world nor about some ancient tradition, i’m talking only about the sentence “This page describes a person, place, thing or event that exists (or existed) in real life.”. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 22:07, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
Umm.. if were being that specific and direct, we have no absolute evidence that machiavelli was real, or that da Vinci was real, (anyone could have painted those paintings), or that Pope Alexander VI was real, or King Richard either since they arent alive now, and cameras werent invented to document their existince. no has any photos or video of their lives or even their corpses. the only proof we have of the life of any historical figure before thomas edison and the camera is WRITTEN DOCUMENTS passed down by historians. one such document was the BIBLE, (i assume you arent denying that the bible is a historic document) and if we are to put that into question than whats to stop me from saying that poeple only BELIEVE that De Medici exists because of works such as The Prince and historical ledgers. Now who's to say if the accuracy of these records can be trusted? maybe The Prince was a forgery? the point is the bible is just as much historic record as any other document that ever existed. [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 23:03, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
:well, i know fantasy books containing more facts than the bible. it’s a historical novel at best. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 23:19, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
This is a public wiki, and comments like that are offensive. but nonetheless, no matter how factual you determine the records to be, they are still records. and your religious opinion has no influence on our templates. sorry, but if you would like to debate religion, youll have to go elsewhere [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 23:25, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, we have members of all religions in this wiki. If just the fact that a tempalte says that Jesus existed bothers you, imagine what your comments about the bible being a fantasy means to religious people. As I said before, "refrain from those high-religious discussions since it causes unnecessary turmoil in peaceful waters." Religion and/or political discussions are not tolerated here, and I'll have to take a measure if this continues for more than a day. Warning One, and it won't have a second. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 03:12, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

:Just thought I'd put in my two cents. The article is based around Jesus as a person in Assassin's Creed. Whether he existed in real life is irrelevant. ''I'', being a Christian, personally believe he exists, but in the Assassin's Creed universe he existed for sure. (Since Al Mualim says so). If you wanna be a religious bigot, take it somewhere else. --{{User:JFHavoc/Sig}} 03:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::you don’t understand the meaning of the word “bigot”, since i’m everything but that. and calling the bible a fantasy novel (with a few historic aspects) is simply the truth. most stories in there are undoubted just stories: not even the silliest christians i know call for example the genesis “a fact”. they all say it’s a metaphor.
::so let’s summarize: the bible contains enough metaphores not to call it “historic”. taht means you can’t take it as historic source because everything in it was either historic or a metaphor and there’s no waay to tell the difference. conclusion: there is as much prove of jesus’ existence than of the existence of adam, eve and their inbreed grandchildren.
::“inbreed” is btw. not offensive but fact: adam and eve are the first people, so their sons have to impregnate their mother or sisters to get children. q.e.d.
::are there other sources which said that jesus lived? if not, i will change the template, if yes, i want to have a link to them/seethem/… ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 12:14, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, a bigot is a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. Now I'm not saying that you're regarding us with hatred and intolerance, but you do seem to be pretty stubborn on this subject. Also, if you actually took the time to read the bible you'd see all of the evidence there is for the existence of a Creator. The Bible is more historically accurate than ''any other historical document we have right now''. All religious documents are filled with things that sound crazy, that's because when it comes to religion things are going to get a little weird. It's religion: that's just the way it is. I don't really wanna argue about this much more, since D. Cello is getting a little PO'd, so just try and be an honorable debater and think about what I've said. --{{User:JFHavoc/Sig}} 16:28, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::you just made my day :): “The Bible is more historically accurate than ''any other historical document we have right now''” ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 16:38, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
:My patience is running out and *somebody*'s going to get blocked... I'm not gonna lock this article since you, sheep, are not being directly offensive or agressive toward a member, and because I really like your nickname. But that aside, Jesus, be a character or a person, is real in our world. It wasn't invented for the AC Games. It wasn't something that came out of a creative producer dream. It was something created or documented two thousand years ago, and most of Earth's populace believes he was real. Wikipedia lists some proofs of his veracity, so you go there if you want and assimilate the entire article. About the template, it states "This page describes a person, place, thing or event that exists (or existed) in real life.” You don't believe he is a real person? Great. But you can't deny he is a real ''thing''. Discussion over, or I'll lock the page and maybe temporary block the arguers, if need arises. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 18:27, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::fair enough. maybe the template text is a bit misleading, then, but if you turn it like this, it does fullfill it’s purpose of linking to “real-world-stuff” in general. i won’t nitpick anymore. one more thing, though: why are you, JFHavoc, being a very religious person, on this wiki and like a game which criticises your belief as much as assassins creed does? this game has a strong atheistic undertone! (or better: anti-religious) ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 20:18, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
This topic (the relgious undertone of AC) seems less offensive than before, and its actually related to assassins creed in a major way, so i think its okay to discuss. if not, let me know, Cello. i think that the assassins creed series isnt about atheism but simply freedom of religion, all the character that say god is a falacy are antagonists, such as the templars, al mualim, and vidic. Altair, though he is an atheist, fights in defence of theism in his last conversation with al mualim (Just before they fight), this even seems to be one of his main reasons for fighting Al mualim (other than the mass mind control thing ;P) the hero of AC2, Ezio, is catholic, and he often gives italian-catholic prayers to those he kills, always saying raquiescat en pace (or however you spell that). yes, many of his targets are preists/cardinals/the pope. but, these men are all corrupted, and it could be said that he is cleasing the faith of those that would try to use it for evil, rather than attacking it. i think that even our current pope, (benedict the 16th i think) would aggree that rodrigio borgia, or pope alexander the 6th was a bad dude. he even raped catrina sforza, he was not nice. Altair also killed jubair when he tried to burn religious texts, (among other texts, but honestly, in the middle ages, how many people, in the middle disrict no less, could afford any secular text? especially when considering that almost all scribes were preists and our buddy Gutenburg hadnt came along yet) [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 21:12, June 7, 2010 (UTC) oh, P.S. im not christian or catholic or anything, i just dont think AC is atheistic. oh, and sorry to d. cello if you dont like this either, d. cello can erase it if he wants.
:i think the opposition against religious fanatics is stronger than the pledge for freedom of religion. note that all the ugly sides of the medieval (plagues, thievery, quacks, poverty, …) are not 'really' featured in the game, but the crusades, the hate preachers, the religious leaders and all are.
:furthermore i’m not quite sure about ezio. everytime somebody wishes him the help of god or something (for example lorenzo on the bridge) he remains quiet. and he sure is of talky sort. “requiescat in pace” may be of religious origin, but the saying is not really religious itself. the christians think you have an afterlife while “rest in peace” implies no movement after the death. “rest in peace” like “stay lying peacefully in your grave”.
:“atheistic”, however, means “without a god”. and the game is just that. the superior goals of both organisations (of which neither is good or bad, another hint http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb21710/common/skins/monobook/bullet.gif) are completely godless, the leaders too. by the way: i am convinced there is no such thing as an “agnostic”: the argumentation is basically that you can’t answer “do you 'believe' in god?” with “i don’t 'know'”. either you believe or you don’t there’s nothing between.
:but you are right insofar that neither of them fights against religion-that would be “anti-theistic”-but for their own conviction (or creed :)), which is godless/atheistic. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 21:51, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
:*the reason why for example japanese game mostly don’t have ultimately evil antagonists is because most japanese people are buddhists. and buddhists don’t have a good god vs evil satan. everyone is human and truly thinks he does the best there is. that’s one of the main reasons i like the assassin’s creed series: because there is no unlikely evil-because-i-can enemy but humans who want peace-utilizing methods the main character and his team/clan/friends don’t agree with.
Okay, so i get that the literal meaning of "rest in peace" doesn't relate to religion, but i seriously doubt that Ezio is actually telling his vcitims to “stay lying peacefully in their grave”.... this isnt exactly a zombie-survival game. as mario says, he is showing respect for the dead, and "dont move" is hardly repectful. i hope you would agree that Ezio, at least, is religious. though religious in a way like sister teodora (not the whole sex thing, just that he practices christianity in his own way, by killing evil guys). I also think that it showed so many religious figures in AC1 not to show the negitive side of religion, but simply because religious figures were the only ones with power in the holy land at that time. the game showed beggars and theives and crappy decaying buildings, though they werent important, true, but Al Mualim couldnt exactly be like "Altair, you must end the life of Bob the homeless man, he is betraying the people by pretending to have a broken leg to get more change" then you have to go and sneak past the defenses of a midieval soup kitchen, this would be much less exciting than killing a powerful leader in his fortress, and powerful leaders of the time where inevitably religious leaders.

also, the story does acually include "gods" as characters. Those who came before dont call themselves gods, but they created mankind, and the peices of eden which were "the power of god" is orby form. that completes my definition of god. when it said moses used the power of god to part the red sea, he did so in the series as well, using an apple? i think, or maybe the staff, but regardless, both are "powers" of the "gods", mankind's creators, even if that is a bit less monotheistic than the common judeo-christian belief. i would say, if anything, the series promotes a revival of greek/roman religion rather than atheism. [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 22:31, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
:sorry, i’m no native english speaker so the phrase about r.i.p. was not exactly good :). instead it is a phrase, like you said, about respect after the death.
:about those who came before: i interpret it exactly opposite: in the in-game reality the people invented their religions based on those who came before, the escape of adam and eve and the actions of completely powerless beings (such as jesus) who used the pieces of eden to create godlike illusion. rational explanations of the religions. atheistic message again. those who came before are just another humanoid species with highly advanced technology, them being seen as gods is because of clarke’s third law: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
:and again ezio: maybe he has his own belief, but i think his silence in religios things means he lost his believe somewhere along the way. he says what he thinks about almost anything but he never reveals anything about his belief. if people are talking about this subject. (i. e. he talks to theodora about her belief but careful not to say anything which would provoke a question abous his view on religion)
:‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 22:49, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::D. Cello has yet to aprove that this is even okay to talk about on his site, (or the wikia site in which he runs and maintains) and im getting a little worried, but I always saw ezio as very sarcastic and witty, always making jokes and the like. when he became quiet upon th mention of religion, i saw that as him becoming more serious and reverant, but maybe thats just me.also, most of the times where "god aid you" is mentioned, it is said as a goodbye, but the first sentence i wrote goes for the teodora part, i think if he was atheistic he would have made a sexual joke then, but maybe he was just trying not to offend the sister, who knows. i also dont think you need to be intangible or off among the heavens to be a "god". jesus is widely considered to be both divine and human. god also "made people in his image" so once can assume that if god has any kind of physical form, it would likely be generally humanoid. but im getting off the subject of AC, so i think that a technilogical device created by gods (though we havent decided on a clear definition of "god" yet) would have "holy power" and still be the same in my eyes. Moses never claimed he himself parted the red sea, he called god to do it. the difference between calling on god to open a sea and using a orb made by god to open a sea is negligible to me, at least when it comes to proving or disproving god's existance. so i would say that while AC alters the real life events stated in the bible, it is not in an attempt to disprove god. and i would also note that AC alters real life secular events as often as religious ones so i woud not consider the changing of biblical stories in AC to be anti-religious in nature [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 23:13, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
This has continued much longer than I would have liked, but as far as this' a discussion and everyone keeps it civilized; don't attacking each other beliefs, criticizing and stuff; you can go on forever. Just remember: we're here cause we love the game. Period. -- [[User:D. Cello|D. Cello]] 23:24, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
:::i’m sorry, but you got the story wrong: nobody never did anything godlike: they only made the people think they did. illusions.
:::why should an atheist make a sexual joke? i would have reacted similar: “well, quite a special way to worship *grin*”
:::again: minerva herself said that those who came before are not gods. if you slow down the “the truth” video, you see some guys forging a peace of eden. it’s technology, and the game is very clear in telling that nothing supernatural is involved (the eagle view is another thing, but i believe, it’s just some kind of visualized instinct: dogs can literally smell who’s their friend, maybe a similar sense is preserved in desmond’s bloodline. the genetics in the game are a bit screwed up: thousands of ancient’s memories saved in a few gigabyte dna. yeah…)
:::i’m really sorry, but you got this part of your theory wrong. there is really no chance that there is any godly magic involved in those who came before and their stuff. that’s what the whole story is about. an ancient high-tech culture with powerful technology. of course it does not disprove god: it is fiction. but in this fictional world, all incomprehensible happenings in history and mythology boil down to technologically induced hallucinations/illusions. that means that although some of the main characters could or could not believe in god, the ones who used the pieces thought they were godsent: we know better, those who came before compiled the thingies: the world the game plays in is godless. ‒ [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 23:42, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
::to me, the creation of such an illusion is godlike. the humans in the video seemed to be working on something, and the chica on the right was holding an apple and usuing mind control, but im not sure what the people were making, but regardless, just because minerva claims she is not a god, but to me it seems she is, whatever she says, she created man, was responsible for religious miracles, and was worshiped for it. maybe Minerva only ment that she was not the god ezio worshiped, not God, or Allah, or Yaweh. Technology created by gods is the power of the gods, just as machines we create are considered "the power of man". i dont believe any of it, in real life or in the game, is magic. god is not magic, he is not a wizard or anything, he is simply divine, superior. i would also say that those who came before are superior, possessing knowledge that humans of the current day cannot even comprehend. Minerva also syas desmonds name... in a hologram during the 1400s.... this hints at an opnipotence comparable to godly power. also, god made the world (biblicaly) using technology as well, if biological technology, the complex organ systems and innerworkings of living things as a system is a technology that far surpasses our own. I know that Minerva says she isnt a god, but if she isnt, than what more do you need to obtain divinity? [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 00:16, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
::oh, and i agree that the whole Eagle vision isnt magic, just a doglike sense of people intentions that seemed to be part of those who came before. it says somewhere that the whole color system thing (bad people being red, good blue) is just the animus's way of recreating that sense when desmond is put into once of the 3D holograms of his memories. [[User:CarloGrimaldi|CarloGrimaldi]] 00:22, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
:::those who came before didn’t create the humans, they enslaved them. and everything which can’t be explained rationally is (in fiction) either not yet fully investigated or magic. wonders are magic (or, like here, mere illusions). and yes, they are very advanced, but that’s what we are, too–compared to stone age people. maybe in 3000 years a boy will find a dvd with assassins creed 2 frozen in some ice, develops in a few seconds with his wrist-comuter a way to read the old device, circumvents the copy-protection with an amused grin and laughs at what we thought to be futuristic after playing through the game in a few seconds with his neuro-pc-interface. what i want to say: just because you think the robots in “terminator” are godlike: they just have advanced technology. as said above: clarke’s third law: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” – [[User:Flying sheep|Flying sheep]] 10:10, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

== If the Templars killed Jesus... ==

From what I understand, the AC fiction uses the real-world organization known as the Knight's Templar as a basis for an antagonistic force to the Assassins. It portrays them less and less like their real-world counterparts and more like some kind of Illuminati- manipulating governments and influential figures to achieve their own goals: the Pieces of Eden.

Why though do these people crucify Jesus of Nazareth in 33 A.D. to obtain his Shroud, when during the Crusades Era (About the time of AC1) they actually fight for Christianity? And in Renaissance Europe, they control the Catholic church? In the fiction of AC, they kill Jesus, yet they are based on a military organization in a religious war fighting for Christianity? [[Special:Contributions/24.239.50.56|24.239.50.56]] 06:31, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

:Video game magic. Nah, I imagine that their fight for Christianity was just a cover for their true goal, as you said.[[User:'R BlaiddDdraig|'R BlaiddDdraig]] 09:04, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

:I agree in part to what the gentleman above me stated, but I also have realized several things recently, in church of all places. Assuming that in the AC universe that the Bible is exactly the same, we can extract some interesting concepts. First, of all, it has been established that the SPQR, the Roman government, was manipulated by the group who would eventually become known as the Knights Templar. Essentially, the Templars had three men publicly executed in 33 CE. On the cross, Jesus stated to one of the men that he would be with Jesus in Paradise. A similar statement was made by Al Mualim in the 12th century; the promise to his servants that he could give them Paradise. Along with interactions with several Pieces of Eden, a mass following of incredibly devoted disciples, and those disciples referring to him as Teacher (or, perhaps, Mentor) one could assume that Christ was actually the grandmaster of a group that would one day become the Levantine Assassins. No wonder the Templars wanted him dead.

:Of course, this is just an assumption of mine and should probably be taken simply for the entertainment value it can provide. However, you should perhaps look into it a little more. It's very fun imagining the New Testament to be a sort of Assassin's Creed in-universe story. [[Special:Contributions/74.137.167.172|74.137.167.172]] 20:31, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

== 3 BC? ==

how can jesus be born in 3 bc when bc means before christ.[[Special:Contributions/2.97.0.167|2.97.0.167]] 17:17, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

He's Jesus. Nuff said. [[Special:Contributions/78.105.39.132|78.105.39.132]] 11:07, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

BC and AD are outdated terms used only in older texts. We now use the acronyms CE (Current Era) and BCE (Before Current Era). And to answer your question, when the original BC/AD terms were used, people obviously believed Jesus was born during the transition between the two. Later findings have proven otherwise it seems. Regardless, BCE and CE are the terms used professionally. -- Vaxis Dec 13 12:47 AM

[[User:S1monab0m|S1monab0m]] ([[User talk:S1monab0m|talk]]) 23:08, January 12, 2013 (UTC)Did jesus aquire an apple to turn water into wine? Al Mualim stated that an apple was used for that and The shrouds powers dind´t involve illusions.

==Image caption==
Could someone with authority please remove the full stop in Jesus' caption? I know this is trivial, and I'd do it myself, but it's (unsurprisingly) locked. {{User:The Crimson Eagle/sig}} 18:52, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Rifts

2013-01-09T00:50:30Z

173.55.237.248: /* Blatant Political Messages */ new section

== Adding information found within the puzzles ==

I've been watching a couple forums work out the different clues left in pictures or notes that [[Subject 16]] leaves for you. Like the gibbrish notes, or random mentions of events. I think that this page would be the best place to put that stuff, but I'm wondering //how// without cluttering up the page? Would a box like the one on the Glyph page work, and then just add in the random stuff on each particular Rifts "page"? -- [[User:A Black Rabbit|A Black Rabbit]] 07:45, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Yep that sounds good. Personally, I think it would be best if this page matched the Glyph page, even in format. =[[User:GuardDog|GuardDog]] 08:21, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

: Well I can go around digging up what other stuff in found in each of the Glyph puzzles as well, that way they match. I'm sure in the past year or so someone's done it. :) -- [[User:A Black Rabbit|A Black Rabbit]] 02:46, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

== The secret messages of subject 16 ==

As you know, there are secret messages within these. for instance, in sequence 3, ""Le chiffre indechiffrable" translates to the "The indecipherable cipher", which is refering to the Vigenere cipher. a cipher that requires a certain key to decode a incomprehensable string of letters. aka, the weird string of letters seen in the pictures.

But, as I said, it requires a key, which is most likely the red letters "imf" in one of the hidden messages (which really should be detailed which letters are red in there). I cant find a vigenere cipher translation program myself. but someone should take those string of letters and use the cypher with the key 'imf' to decode em.[[User:CloudHiro|CloudHiro]] 10:26, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

: (Psst, you may want to delete your other section on the talk page. :) )

: It's already been done on a number of forums by a number of people, right now I'm just trying to collect them all, as its hard for me to make out the text on my tv screen. The code for Cluster 3 is indeed IMF. The one involving the bolt of lightning (6 I think?) is either ITT or CNN. But I haven't gotten that far yet in the data. :) I've started compiling it all on my sandbox page ([[User:A Black Rabbit/Sandbox]]), including all the quotes and a bit of minor background on how they're connected, but it's going to take a long while, and a lot of editing before it can really be added to the page. I have to agree though with [[User:GuardDog]] that this page //should// resemble the [[Glyphs]] page, because that box that contains all the answers is really nifty. At least in my opinion. ;) -- [[User:A Black Rabbit|A Black Rabbit]] 11:04, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice to explain how to solve the ciphers.

_________________ 
Sorry, I'm new to this kinda thing.... 
Anyway, did anyone else notice the reflections in the truth level? I saw reflections of buildings and clouds and gondalas? Could that be important? 
[[Special:Contributions/82.44.89.199|82.44.89.199]] Liz

== unfinished ==

is anybody going to put the puzzle solutions for clusters 8,9 and 10? i'm stuck on those and don't know where else to look.--[[User:Soul reaper magnum|Soul reaper magnum]] 00:00, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

This site [http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2010/11/18/assassin%E2%80%99s-creed-brotherhood-rifts-locations-guide-puzzles-answers-for-subject-16s-the-truth-included-xbox-360-ps3.htm here] has the puzzle answers. Also, you can Google "Brotherhood rift puzzles" or something like that to find other sites that have the answers, there are quite a few out there. As for the unfinished state of the article, I'm not sure if anyone intends to complete it, I guess it's kinda been forgotten. '''[[User:Ozzyjalo94|OZ]][[User talk:Ozzyjalo94|ZY]]''' 02:11, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Figured there'd be a short discussion of the hidden codes and such in each cluster, such as musical notes, morse code, things like mentioning the IMF, etc.

== The Creepy Female Voice ==

Did that female voice creep out anybody else, especially in the latter clusters when she started breaking down and crying for help without losing that monotone?

[[User:DarkSoldier84|DarkSoldier84]] 03:19, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

16 speaking using the Animus. That's my guess, but yes, creeped me out too [[User:Master Decoder|Master Decoder]] 09:03, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

== Article Title ==

Should we move the content of this article under the title '''Clusters'''? That's the name used in the title of the puzzles. We can then redirect the 'Rifts' title there.
[[User:Smoke3723|Smoke3723]] 00:40, July 10, 2011 (UTC)

== Puzzle Types ==

One of the main types of puzzles is missing in the Puzzle Types part. I'm talking about that type of puzzles that you turn rings of circular thing in order to make them correct images. --[[User:Imam of Alamout|''Safety'' and '''peace''']] 07:53, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

== Cluster 5 correction ==

hey just to let u guys know in cluster 5 where it says EYE TEA TEE and u used that cipher to make it "CNN", its actually supposed to be "ITT" , no chiper-ing needed. ITT stands for international phone and telegraph (prollt somethin different now) but yea wiki it, and you'll see the picture from the cluster is the front of the building. it makes sense there a huge corporate empire, or were i guess... (shway)

<strike>Altair and Ezio's religion?[[User:The Nooby Assassin|The Nooby Assassin]] 03:02, January 31, 2012 (UTC)</strike>

^ Irrelevant [[User:Master Decoder|Master Decoder]] 03:35, January 31, 2012 (UTC)
==Cluster 9 Alternate Solution ==
There is another solution for the audio puzzle of cluster 9. Selecting these also works.

___|___| X

___|___|___

X |___|___

___| X |___

[[User:Rodrigo Abrantes Antunes|Rodrigo Abrantes Antunes]] 14:11, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

== "Rifts" ==

Where did the name "Rifts" come from? I've never heard it in-game, only the name "Clusters." I propose a move. -- [[User:Master Sima Yi|Master Sima Yi]] 10:28, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Not sure where but I think somewhere in ACBH they call it a "rift in the Animus programming". I could be wrong though. [[User:IlMualim|'''IlMualim''']] [[User Talk:IlMualim|Wanna Chat?]] 10:44, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

I support the move to "Clusters". [[User:-S-|Kainzorus Prime]] [[User talk:-S-|Walkie-talkie]] 12:47, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Little late on this but there was a heading in the [[Assassin's Creed: Revelations Official Game Guide|Revelations Game Guide]] called "Glyphs and Rifts". [[User:Arcemz|'''Arcemz''']] [[User_Talk:Arcemz|Something on your mind?]] 06:42, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Did this move proposal die? --[[User:-S-|Kainzorus Prime]] [[User talk:-S-|Walkie-talkie]] 17:25, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

:Aaaaaaaaand another bump. --[[User:-S-|Kainzorus Prime]] [[User talk:-S-|Walkie-talkie]] 18:04, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
:So you won't have to wait ANOTHER month or two. I support the move unless some solid evidence from AC2 is provided [[Special:Contributions/115.186.172.61|115.186.172.61]] 18:06, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
:DAMN EDIT CONFLICTS!!!!
:Anyway: "Uh...what's gonna happen, guys?" is what I wanted to say. [[User:The Leaping Eagle|The Leaping Eagle]] ([[User talk:The Leaping Eagle|talk]]) 18:08, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
:I have heard clusters and rifts used interchangeably by some of the AC team in interviews. And no I am not going to go back and provide a link(s) to prove it because there would be too many to look through.-- ► '''''[[User:Kaloneous|Kaloneous]]''''' ◄[[User talk:Kaloneous| ♣HelpDesk♣]] 18:14, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

==Outside Animus scene==
Can anyone get videos of the outside Animus scene that happens after completing the free-run obstacle course? The scene that happens apparently only if the ten clusters & free-run course are completed pre-DNA Sequence 9. It seems some copies of the game (possibly even repaired by a patch) will glitch up during this scene and Desmond will get physically stuck inside the Animus. It may be useful and informative if videos of the scene, glitched and unglitched, could be offered. [[Special:Contributions/70.28.245.4|70.28.245.4]] 09:10, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

== Blatant Political Messages ==

Don't get me wrong, the Assassin's Creed games are really fun to play, and the in-game stories are very interesting. However, in these little snipbits, it seems as though the developers decided to vent their political biases onto the game, effectively ruining some of it. One can read any of the messages in these clusters and tell that the author of these puzzles:

1. Supports the Democratic Party, against the Republican Party: Labels conservative Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court and Former President George W. Bush as Templar puppets. Implies that the Templars influenced the electoral college to have Bush win in 2000. Also hints at the Assassins supporting Al Gore.

2. Supports aspects of Communism, against Captitalism: Constantly reminding the player that Capitalism is "slavery" ("Optional slavery in exchange for pieces of paper"). Shows Assassin symbols on Communist flags and political banners. Says that Templars brought down the Soviet Union, a former communist superpower and replaced the government with a Capitalist government. In my opinion, it's very ironic for the Assassins (who support freedom for every individual) to be in favor of Communism, and the Templars (who want to bring order through force) would be in favor of Capitalism. Communism is a government/economic system in which the government has complete control of everything, there is no private property, and the rights of the government and the populace take supremacy over the rights of the individual. Capitalism is government/economic system in which the government has little to no control on the market (hence "free market"), everyone can own private property, and the rights of the individual take supremacy over the rights of the government and the populace. According to these truths, it would definitely make more sense for the Assassins to support FREE-enterprise and the FREE-market because they are all about FREEDOM. The Templars are all about control, and the government is a perfect tool to control the populace. Therefore, Communism would be a great way to exert control on the people just as the Soviet Union did in the 20th century. However, the developers seemed to adhere to their personal political beliefs instead of adhering to what each faction actually stood for.

I realize the developers are entitled to their opinion, as are we all (at least in a FREE society), but filling games with politics like this just seems a little low to me, and it definitely influenced my opinion of the game series.[[Special:Contributions/173.55.237.248|173.55.237.248]] 00:50, January 9, 2013 (UTC)

Shrouds of Eden

2013-01-08T21:30:44Z

173.55.237.248: /* Middle East */

{{Era|AC2|PL|TWCB}}
{{WP-REAL|Shroud of Turin}}
{{Quote|A myth become miracle, the "holy winding sheet" has arrived...|An Assassin describing the Shroud.|Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy}}
[[File:MemoryShroud01.jpg|250px|thumb|right|The Shroud.]]
The '''Shroud of Eden''' was a linen cloth known to be a mystical object of restoration and healing. Numbered '''[[Pieces of Eden|Piece of Eden]] #66''', it was one of the many artifacts created by the [[First Civilization]].

The Shroud was described as a white cloth stained with blood, which was usually kept in a simple wooden box. The shape of a seemingly tortured man was also burned onto its surface, positioned with arms to his sides and palms forward. However, Church records noted that the man's visage changed multiple times throughout history.

==Owners==
* [[First Civilization]] (? - ?)<ref name="AC2">''[[Assassin's Creed II]]''</ref>
* [[Jason]] (? - ?)<ref name="AC2" />
* [[Joseph]] (? - ?)<ref name="AC2" />
* [[David]] (? - ?)<ref name="AC2" />
* [[Roman Assassins]] (c. 42 BC)<ref name="ACPL Christmas">''[[Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy]]'' - [[Holidays: Chapter 1 - Ghosts of Christmas Past]]</ref>
* [[Jesus Christ]] of Nazareth (? - 33 AD)<ref name="AC2" /><ref name="ACPL Christmas" />
* [[Geoffroy de Charny]] (? - ?)<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />
* [[Mario Auditore]] (1454)<ref name="ACPL Mario Auditore">''Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy'' - [[Italian Wars: Chapter 3 - Mario Auditore]]</ref>
* [[Giovanni Auditore]] (1454)<ref name="ACPL Mario Auditore" />
* [[Rinaldo Vitturi]] (? - 1498)<ref name="ACPL Perotto Calderon">''Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy'' - [[Italian Wars: Chapter 4 - Perotto Calderon]]</ref>
* [[Perotto Calderon]] (1498)<ref name="ACPL Perotto Calderon" />
* [[Niccolò di Pitigliano]] (1509 – 1510)<ref name="ACPL Francesco Vecellio">''Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy'' - [[Italian Wars: Chapter 2 - Francesco Vecellio]]</ref>
* [[Francesco Vecellio]] (1510 - ?)<ref name="ACPL Francesco Vecellio" />
* The Baguttiani (? - 1944)<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />

==History==
===Greece===
The Shroud's earliest appearance seems to have been in Greek myth, where it was known as the Golden Fleece, a legendary object of strange power. It was recovered by [[Jason]] and the Argonauts, who took it from a tree guarded by a serpent in Asia Minor.<ref name="AC2"/>

===Macedonia===
{{Quote|Whatever power lies within this artifact, it has not returned our Brother to us.|An Assassin commenting on the failed resurrection of Brutus.|Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy}}
[[File:Philippi, Macedonia.png|250px|thumb|left|The Shroud covering Brutus.]]
The Shroud later came into the possession of the [[Assassins]] of ancient [[Rome]] for some time. After the assassination of [[Gaius Julius Caesar|Julius Caesar]] in 44 BC, and the subsequent suicide of [[Marcus Junius Brutus|Brutus]] in 42 BC, Brutus' fellow Assassins tried to reanimate him with the Shroud in Philippi, {{Wiki|Macedonia (region)|Macedonia}}.<ref name="ACPL Christmas"/>

Since they had never used it before, the Assassins feared its effects, but nevertheless wrapped Brutus in the cloth. Though the corpse opened its eyes and moved its arms, it neither breathed nor reacted to any touch, and eventually fell still in a seeming "second death."<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />

As some of the Assassins wept, Brutus was wrapped instead in a burial mantle, and the Shroud was returned to its wooden storage box.<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />

{{-}}
===Middle East===
[[File:ACII-GlyphShroud-Christ.png|200px|thumb|right|Christ's crucifixion, when the Shroud was taken.]]
In 1700 BC, the Shroud was known as the famous multicolored coat given to [[Joseph]] by his father Jacob, and in 970 BC, it was thought to be what aided [[David]], second king of Israel, in his fight against Goliath.<ref name="AC2" />

However, the Shroud's most famous owner was [[Jesus Christ]]. Upon discovering his possession of the Shroud, the [[Templars]] (under the guise of the {{Wiki|Roman Empire}}) had Jesus crucified circa 30 AD, and claimed the Piece of Eden for themselves.<ref name="AC2" />

One theory is that Jesus' disciples were able to recover the Shroud and used it to resurrect him. However, this is unlikely, as the shroud was revealed not to bring the dead back to life after the failed resurrection of Brutus. After this, traces of the Shroud disappeared.<ref name="AC2" />

===Monteriggioni===
{{Quote|What better place than our walled city to hide such abominations from mankind? We will bury it deep and set up measures to ensure it remains hidden.|An Assassin regarding the concealment of the Shroud.|Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy}}
The Shroud eventually came into the possession of [[Geoffroy de Charny]], a [[France|French]] Templar of the mid-14th century. It was stolen from him by the Assassins of [[Monteriggioni]], who replaced it with a careful forgery.<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />

[[File:Monteriggioni, Italy.png|thumb|250px|left|The Assassins of Monteriggioni examining the Shroud.]]
Upon confirming the Shroud's validity, an [[House of Auditore|Auditore]] Assassin<ref name="ACPL Mario Auditore" /> decided that the Shroud needed to be hidden. After concealing the artifact with claims of fraud and falsified Church records, the city well was drained and excavated further in order to store the Shroud.<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />

The Templars eventually discovered the location of the Shroud, thus, in 1454, the condottiero [[Federico da Montefeltro]] was sent to besiege the city. [[Mario Auditore]] successfully repelled the attack, and through a confession from an enemy spy, [[Luciano Pezzati]], he learned that the siege had merely been an attempt to gain access to something hidden under Monteriggioni.<ref name="ACPL Mario Auditore" />

With a team of historians and architects, Mario searched for any record of the artifact, but only found vague references to the city well. He and a team of soldiers eventually found a hidden entrance on the back wall of the well, and were led into a narrow corridor filled with traps. As they passed through it, many men lost their lives to the razor wires, pitfalls and tripwire arrows, with Mario himself losing his left eye to a swinging pendulum.<ref name="ACPL Mario Auditore" />

[[File:PL Chasing Miracles.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The hidden Shroud in its box.]]
Eventually, the few remaining men reached the final room, which only contained a simple wooden box. All present heard a voice that promised to heal their injuries, but as Mario warned his men not to open the box, they attacked him. The condottiero was forced to kill them, and only just managed to return to the city, ignoring the screams and temptations projected into his mind by the artifact.<ref name="ACPL Mario Auditore" />

Fearing its powers, Mario hid the Shroud temporarily within [[Villa Auditore|his Villa]], then sent for his brother, [[Giovanni Auditore]], who took the Piece of Eden far away from Monteriggioni. The Shroud was no longer mentioned afterwards, and Mario dismissed it as "the Brotherhood's problem now."<ref name="ACPL Mario Auditore" />

{{-}}
===Agnadello===
{{Quote|So... beautiful! It is a plain thing, carefully folded inside a simple wooden box, but it is also so much more!|Perotto Calderon first encountering the Shroud.|Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy}}
[[File:Revelation.jpg|250px|thumb|left|The Shroud covering Perotto's son, Giovanni Borgia.]]
As of 1498, [[Perotto Calderon]] was an undercover Assassin spying on the Borgia, though he fell in love with the Templar [[Lucrezia Borgia]], who eventually became pregnant with his child. However, [[Giovanni Borgia|the boy]] was born deformed, and was expected to die within a few days. Knowing of the potentially life-saving artifact his Brotherhood kept, Perotto took his son and escaped to [[Agnadello]].<ref name="ACPL Perotto Calderon"/>

Perotto soon arrived at the home of [[Rinaldo Vitturi]], who he knew was guarding the Shroud. Though he was forced to kill many of his own Brothers, Perotto successfully used the Shroud to heal his son, but was later executed by his fellow Assassins for breaking [[the Creed]].<ref name="ACPL Perotto Calderon" />

{{-}}
===Lonigo===
{{Quote|I have no choice. Whatever power this thing holds, I must try to unleash it!|Niccolò di Pitigliano, just before attempting to use the Shroud.|Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy}}
[[File:White2.png|250px|thumb|right|Niccolò di Pitigliano wrapped in the Shroud.]]
The Shroud then fell into the hands of [[Niccolò di Pitigliano]], likely during or around the [[Battle of Agnadello]] in 1509, of which he was a participant. In 1510, the Assassin [[Francesco Vecellio]] was sent to kill Niccolò, and to retrieve the Piece of Eden.<ref name="ACPL Francesco Vecellio"/>

Though Francesco succeeded in striking a deadly blow, Niccolò survived by touching the Shroud; which he was able to drag himself towards despite his injuries. Temporarily rejuvenated, he took the artifact from its hiding place and managed to flee his burning manor.<ref name="ACPL Francesco Vecellio" />

However, he wished to be healed completely, and thus wrapped himself in the cloth. At this point, though, the artifact turned against him and destroyed his body, finishing the Assassin's job. Francesco, who had anticipated this, reappeared and took the Shroud from his dying grip.<ref name="ACPL Francesco Vecellio" />

{{-}}
===Milan===
{{Quote|Goose chase in the middle of a warzone while our own boys are dropping the bombs on me. For what? Chance that it may be the real thing? Right... been at this nearly twenty years and I don't even believe it exists.|The Templar agent sent to search for the Shroud.|Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy}}
[[File:Milan, Italy.png|thumb|250px|left|The sale of the Shroud in Milan.]]
On Christmas Day of 1944, in the middle of [[World War II]], a Templar agent was directed to a restaurant in [[Milan]], in order to purchase an artifact claimed to be the Shroud. Though dubious, he brought a large sum of money through the war zone and met with one of the Baguttiani family, who showed him a folded cloth in a wooden box.<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />

To his surprise, the agent was able to confirm the Piece of Eden's identity using a metallic [[Abstergo Industries]] logo keychain, which vibrated upon being brought near the Shroud.<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />

==Use and side effects==
{{Quote|The voice does not seem hostile, despite its urgency. Perhaps it does only wish to heal, but I will not take a chance!|Mario Auditore, regarding the use of the Shroud.|Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy}}
[[File:Sideeffects.png|thumb|250px|right|The Shroud destroying Niccolò di Pitigliano.]]
The Shroud has been used to heal wounds of varying severity, mending injuries ranging from stab wounds to birth defects. It spoke in an almost kind voice that constantly offered healing, and urged its users to disregard their own physical frailty.<ref name="ACPL Perotto Calderon" /><ref name="ACPL Francesco Vecellio" />

Despite the rumors of its abilities to do so, it could not be used to bring a being back to life. However, it could reanimate bodies to a small degree for a short amount of time.<ref name="ACPL Christmas" />

The Shroud was also known to cause severe hallucinations in those who had used it, and (in extreme cases, such as that of Niccolò di Pitigliano) could also seem to tear a person from the inside out.<ref name="ACPL Francesco Vecellio" />

[[File:Lateral Vision PL.jpg|thumb|250px|left|Perotto appearing in Giovanni's dreams.]]
Giovanni Borgia in particular suffered lasting effects from the Shroud. Though the artifact healed his defective body as a baby, throughout his childhood, he would have vivid dreams of the [[Bleeding Effect|memories of others]] who had come into contact with the Shroud, such as his father and Marcus Junius Brutus.<ref name="ACPL Giovanni Borgia Rome">''Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy'' - [[Rome: Chapter 2 - Giovanni Borgia]]</ref>

Additionally, Giovanni frequently spoke with a being no one else could see, an entity he called [[Consus]].<ref name="ACPL Giovanni Borgia Rome" />

In his later life, Giovanni would become known among the other Assassins as one who "spoke" with Pieces of Eden, and was particularly receptive to their presence. This led to him being sent on a mission to identify and retrieve [[Crystal Skulls|one such artifact]] in the New World.<ref name="ACPL Giovanni Borgia Mexico">''Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy'' - [[Rome: Chapter 4 - Giovanni Borgia]]</ref>

==Trivia==
*The Shroud was based on a real object known as the Shroud of Turin. It is kept in the royal chapel of the {{Wiki|Turin Cathedral|Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist}} in {{Wiki|Turin|Turin}}, northern [[Italy]].
*Coordinates given to [[Ezio Auditore da Firenze|Ezio Auditore]] and [[Leonardo da Vinci]] in the [[Pythagorean Vault]] in ''[[The Da Vinci Disappearance]]'' [[DLC]] pointed near the city of {{Wiki|Turin, New York}}.
*In the French version of ''[[Assassin's Creed II]]'', the Shroud was referred to as Piece of Eden #36, not #66. Whether or not this was a mistake in the translation remains unknown.
*In ''[[Assassin's Creed: Project Legacy]]'', [[Erudito]] gave the user three memories of the Shroud as a "Christmas present."
*In ''Project Legacy'', one of [[Mnemonic sets]] from the Holiday pack is "Shroud of Turin," with the description "Greatest mystery, or clever hoax?" Its components are: Jesus of Nazareth, Jacques de Molay, Geoffroi de Charney, and [[Cesare Borgia]].

==References==
{{Reflist}}

{{PoE}}
{{First Civilization}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Shroud}}
[[Category:Pieces of Eden]]